5 ms·

If a government organization would want to use a Linux, how hard would it actually be? Is it a viable alternative?

pid-1 5y ago
I don't think govs are different from your average company. Having a Linux based business is hard, for a few reasons: - Destkop Linux sucks - You need experienced sysadmins. There is no Linux equivalent to AD / Azure AD in terms of simplicity, as far as I know. Also true for other stuff like app management. - User resistance, as few people use Linux as their daily OSes
- nivenkos 5y ago
  But on the other hand they have a much bigger incentive than a company to be able to have a system they control and can use throughout different public administrations.
- mupuff1234 5y ago
  I wonder if we will see a push from Google with chrome os.
  - bastawhiz 5y ago
    They have already pushed and many companies ship Chrome OS to their employees. It's extremely common for non-technical folks.
- worik 5y ago
  Desktop Linux does not suck. It has not sucked since about 1993 If you compare Linux 1993 to Mac SO 2022 it still stacks up, almost. Comparing Linux 1993 to MS Dos of the time is unfair. It took MS till about 2000 to be able to compete with Linux on quality MS Windows was successful for other reasons than the operating system.
  - pid-1 5y ago
    I'm a professional sysadmin and I really can't say many good things about most Linux distros except they're open source. Security, configuration, usability, documentation, driver support... it's all terrible. BSDs are generally a bit better as they will at least have some level of consistency and decent docs.
  - hedora 5y ago
    Desktop Linux definitely sucks if you define it as "what's the worst out of box experience I can expect?" Unfortunately, that's the correct bar for things that need to "just work". Sure, with enough experience, I'm sure I could buy hammer parts and build an awesome custom hammer. If you gave me the box of parts and told me to quickly hang a picture, the head would probably fly off the hammer and kill someone. (Desktop Linux user since kernel 0.9; it's by far the least bad option for me, but that doesn't matter in this context.)
EnKopVand 5y ago
I spent 7 years working with digitalisation in the Danish public sector and it depends on what you mean, and what you want to pay for it. Basically the short answer is that it is impossible. What is often forgotten about non-tech enterprise here on HN is that a typical public sector organisation has a ratio of 20-50 IT people (this is everyone, from the network and operations people to developers and project managers) per 10.000 employees in organisation where almost every employee uses some form of IT system to perform their duty. Some users will not be capable of telling you if they are on an iOS or Android devices, and almost all of them know Microsoft Office and Outlook because that is what every place they have ever worked and will ever work uses. Or to frame it differently, the change management and retraining of 10000 employees is going to crush you, very, very quickly. On top of that your IT staff is certified and trained with Microsoft technologies, and most of them are likely happy about that to the point where they will leave your organisation if you push them toward Linux. That is the employees. There is also the technology, and all the IT systems that only works on windows and have no competitors. This can be everything from your million dollar MRI machine to the dentist program (dentists are part of the public sector in Denmark). Cutting ties with Microsoft completely, would mean you’d need someone to develop alternatives to these things. (Yes, your million dollar MRI machine shouldn’t depend on windows XP, but it does). So obviously it’s not impossible, nothing is, it’s just really, really, expensive. It’s so expensive that it will likely be it would be political suicide because the money you need to pay for the transition is going to come from firing nurses, school teachers, and other primary functions. That being said, a lot of public sector organisations do take open source seriously. Especially here in Europe. But there isn’t a clean way to cut ties with Microsoft, and it’s actually become harder and harder. Because where is the Linux alternative to office365? Disclaimer: I consider Microsoft to be the best external business partner that I’ve worked with while I was in the public sector.
- mupuff1234 5y ago
  How many native windows apps are being used? It sounds like it's always gonna be a messy migration, but I wonder if you can somewhat simplify it by moving all users to web apps? Basically as an intermediate transition step to first decouple usage from the underlying OS.
rirze 5y ago
Didn't Germany at one point, try to do this? I'm not sure if they still are using Linux. Also certain Chinese agencies are most definitely using custom distros.
- jjkaczor 5y ago
  Yes, Germany did do this for a few years. And the Microsoft came calling again - guess what they use now? It is the example I used to tell clients about how if your organization is big enough, publicly visible enough and open to being in the news/or a case study) and has great lawyers, you can probably get Microsoft licensing for essentially "free". And those "nearly free" licenses will increase over the next 2-5 years. The cynic in me says that Germany did this to get better bargaining leverage with Microsoft... (Apparently they are cycling around back again, over the last couple years trying to transition away from Microsoft for some states/groups/municipalities within Germany)
- DoingIsLearning 5y ago
  It was the city of Munich [0], not the entirety of Germany. I think there is also Vicenza in Italy where the municipality is using Zorin Os. [1] [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiMux https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiMux [1] https://itsfoss.com/vicenza-windows-zorin/ https://itsfoss.com/vicenza-windows-zorin/
- hulitu 5y ago
  > Didn't Germany at one point, try to do this? I'm not sure if they still are using Linux. Well Gates made a "visit" in Münich to "convince" them that windows is better.
fartcannon 5y ago
Not hard technically, but hard because people associate free things with cheap and there's a lot of experience momentum that really upsets people if they think they're being forced to do something even slightly differently. And yes it's a viable alternative and has been for decades.

I don't think govs are different from your average company. Having a Linux based business is hard, for a few reasons: - Destkop Linux sucks - You need experienced sysadmins. There is no Linux equivalent to AD / Azure AD in terms of simplicity, as far as I know. Also true for other stuff like app management. - User resistance, as few people use Linux as their daily OSes

nivenkos 5y ago
But on the other hand they have a much bigger incentive than a company to be able to have a system they control and can use throughout different public administrations.
mupuff1234 5y ago
I wonder if we will see a push from Google with chrome os.
- bastawhiz 5y ago
  They have already pushed and many companies ship Chrome OS to their employees. It's extremely common for non-technical folks.
worik 5y ago
Desktop Linux does not suck. It has not sucked since about 1993 If you compare Linux 1993 to Mac SO 2022 it still stacks up, almost. Comparing Linux 1993 to MS Dos of the time is unfair. It took MS till about 2000 to be able to compete with Linux on quality MS Windows was successful for other reasons than the operating system.
- pid-1 5y ago
  I'm a professional sysadmin and I really can't say many good things about most Linux distros except they're open source. Security, configuration, usability, documentation, driver support... it's all terrible. BSDs are generally a bit better as they will at least have some level of consistency and decent docs.
- hedora 5y ago
  Desktop Linux definitely sucks if you define it as "what's the worst out of box experience I can expect?" Unfortunately, that's the correct bar for things that need to "just work". Sure, with enough experience, I'm sure I could buy hammer parts and build an awesome custom hammer. If you gave me the box of parts and told me to quickly hang a picture, the head would probably fly off the hammer and kill someone. (Desktop Linux user since kernel 0.9; it's by far the least bad option for me, but that doesn't matter in this context.)

EnKopVand 5y ago

I spent 7 years working with digitalisation in the Danish public sector and it depends on what you mean, and what you want to pay for it. Basically the short answer is that it is impossible. What is often forgotten about non-tech enterprise here on HN is that a typical public sector organisation has a ratio of 20-50 IT people (this is everyone, from the network and operations people to developers and project managers) per 10.000 employees in organisation where almost every employee uses some form of IT system to perform their duty. Some users will not be capable of telling you if they are on an iOS or Android devices, and almost all of them know Microsoft Office and Outlook because that is what every place they have ever worked and will ever work uses. Or to frame it differently, the change management and retraining of 10000 employees is going to crush you, very, very quickly. On top of that your IT staff is certified and trained with Microsoft technologies, and most of them are likely happy about that to the point where they will leave your organisation if you push them toward Linux. That is the employees. There is also the technology, and all the IT systems that only works on windows and have no competitors. This can be everything from your million dollar MRI machine to the dentist program (dentists are part of the public sector in Denmark). Cutting ties with Microsoft completely, would mean you’d need someone to develop alternatives to these things. (Yes, your million dollar MRI machine shouldn’t depend on windows XP, but it does). So obviously it’s not impossible, nothing is, it’s just really, really, expensive. It’s so expensive that it will likely be it would be political suicide because the money you need to pay for the transition is going to come from firing nurses, school teachers, and other primary functions. That being said, a lot of public sector organisations do take open source seriously. Especially here in Europe. But there isn’t a clean way to cut ties with Microsoft, and it’s actually become harder and harder. Because where is the Linux alternative to office365? Disclaimer: I consider Microsoft to be the best external business partner that I’ve worked with while I was in the public sector.

mupuff1234 5y ago
How many native windows apps are being used? It sounds like it's always gonna be a messy migration, but I wonder if you can somewhat simplify it by moving all users to web apps? Basically as an intermediate transition step to first decouple usage from the underlying OS.

rirze 5y ago

Didn't Germany at one point, try to do this? I'm not sure if they still are using Linux. Also certain Chinese agencies are most definitely using custom distros.

jjkaczor 5y ago
Yes, Germany did do this for a few years. And the Microsoft came calling again - guess what they use now? It is the example I used to tell clients about how if your organization is big enough, publicly visible enough and open to being in the news/or a case study) and has great lawyers, you can probably get Microsoft licensing for essentially "free". And those "nearly free" licenses will increase over the next 2-5 years. The cynic in me says that Germany did this to get better bargaining leverage with Microsoft... (Apparently they are cycling around back again, over the last couple years trying to transition away from Microsoft for some states/groups/municipalities within Germany)
DoingIsLearning 5y ago
It was the city of Munich [0], not the entirety of Germany. I think there is also Vicenza in Italy where the municipality is using Zorin Os. [1] [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiMux https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiMux [1] https://itsfoss.com/vicenza-windows-zorin/ https://itsfoss.com/vicenza-windows-zorin/
hulitu 5y ago
> Didn't Germany at one point, try to do this? I'm not sure if they still are using Linux. Well Gates made a "visit" in Münich to "convince" them that windows is better.

fartcannon 5y ago

Not hard technically, but hard because people associate free things with cheap and there's a lot of experience momentum that really upsets people if they think they're being forced to do something even slightly differently. And yes it's a viable alternative and has been for decades.