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"But I do not pretend that my good fortune some how means I work or harder or am smarter than other people in our society" What a defeatist attitude. I do wor

by rick888 15y ago

"But I do not pretend that my good fortune some how means I work or harder or am smarter than other people in our society" What a defeatist attitude. I do work harder and smarter than other people in our society. My work and success reflects this. "and it makes them sickeningly self congratulatory." It's sickening that you would equate having a good job with mostly luck. Winning the lottery is pure luck. I chose to get involved in the tech industry. If I would have been in any other time, I would have chosen a different industry and most likely been successful. Less than 1% of it has to do with luck. If I would have just sat here and done nothing, my career wouldn't have fallen into my lap and my skill set wouldn't have suddenly appeared. Anybody can be successful.

scarmig 15y ago
Just like those workers who saw that housing was booming in 2004 and decided to join that industry, eh? Of course, tech bubbles never exist, so that's an imperfect analogy.
_delirium 15y ago
You must be an odd person if you have equal aptitudes and passion for a huge range of things, and can choose them based solely on current economic demand. Few to no people I know in tech are like that, though. I'd be into hacker culture if the field was full of shit jobs; the way some people live and breathe music and can't imagine doing anything else, others can't imagine not doing something that involves hacking technology. It's just sugar on top that there's all this money floating around in the field too. I mean, I got hooked on computers when I was 6 or 7, from Logo. I'm pretty sure I didn't get hooked due to my great foresight and economic responsibility. It was just interesting. Other people get hooked on other things, whether it's math or music. I'm fortunate that my thing pays well, but I don't think that makes me better than them. Makes my life easier, sure, but for exogenous reasons. I don't think it's uncorrelated with merit, but I do think the correlation is very inconsistent. I know brilliant mathematicians with much poorer incomes, for example (pure math doesn't pay well... despite its long-term usefulness, it's hard to capture the value / monetize it).
nick_urban 15y ago
I started programming because I was fascinated by computers. It wasn't until years later that I found out it was a lucrative job. It sounds like your recommendation would be for everyone to chase money regardless of their passions. You have to admit that people who are passionate about things that pay well get a better deal in that situation. There are a lot of things that are worthwhile that are not well rewarded economically. If all of the artists and idealists disappeared and we were only left with money-chasers, the world would be that much poorer. Also, regarding success: hard work and intelligence matter a lot, but so does opportunity. Have a look at Gladwell's Outliers for an interesting analysis of this.
- rick888 15y ago
  "It sounds like your recommendation would be for everyone to chase money regardless of their passions." If you don't think about the money at some point, then don't complain when you can't find a job. It's not your job to chase money and it's not society's job to pay you for something that's worthless. "You have to admit that people who are passionate about things that pay well get a better deal in that situation." You can make money with almost any passion, you just need to be smart enough to find the market. Most people want to be handed it...which just isn't going to happen. "Also, regarding success: hard work and intelligence matter a lot, but so does opportunity. Have a look at Gladwell's Outliers for an interesting analysis of this." I don't need to. I see opportunities every day that people in my exact same position at the exact time (at work for instance) miss. Why? Because I have the skills and experience and I know what I'm looking for. Without the skills, knowledge, and experience, the opportunity is worthless. The more knowledge and skills you have, the more opportunities you will see and the better chance you have at becoming successful. It's really sad to see so many people equating success with pure luck.
- michaelchisari 15y ago
  Plus, there's the negative effect of having our market flooded with people who go into programming "because that's where the money is". I'm as critical as anyone when people decide to get liberal arts degrees without at least working on other skills on the side, but let's not be so naive to think that if a CS degree was the new liberal arts degree, that we wouldn't be having the same exact problem in society. Only we (people on HN) would probably be making much less money.
gsoltis 15y ago
In some sense, I sympathize with you. I too have worked hard and been successful. I chose (out of passion, but I don't begrudge those who chose based on economics) to go into engineering while friends of mine went into less lucrative fields. I myself was fortunate. Lucky, to be honest. My parents took advantage of things like student loans so that they could work hard and be successful. The result was that I didn't have to worry about student loans and graduated without debt. I worked hard to graduate, but I don't have illusions that my financial situation was anything other than luck on my part. You may not call it luck, and I don't know your specific situation, but I'm going to hypothesize that you had some help along the way. How did you educate yourself? How did you pay for it? Did you go to a public school system? Was it better than the ones that exist now? Did you go to a private school? Did you pay for it yourself? My point is, we often take this sort of assistance for granted, and it is gratifying to credit ourselves with 100% of our success. Maybe you are 100% responsible for your own success. If that's the case, you're the first such person that I've ever met.
- rick888 15y ago
  "You may not call it luck, and I don't know your specific situation, but I'm going to hypothesize that you had some help along the way. How did you educate yourself? " We could go very far with attributing luck to success. Einstein must have been very lucky to come up with the theory of relativity. In fact, everything we do must be due to luck because it's lucky our planet is in a position from the sun that's habitable. "How did you educate yourself" By going to the library in the beginning (which is free) and then later through the Internet (which is also now free at almost any library in the US). Most people in Highschool and in college are out partying every weekend with their friends..and then they wonder why they aren't successful when it comes to getting a job. I chose to sacrifice my time to learn things that I knew would help advance my career. "How did you pay for it?" With a crappy retail job that didn't really have much to do with my career. "Did you go to a public school system". Yes. "My point is, we often take this sort of assistance for granted, and it is gratifying to credit ourselves with 100% of our success. Maybe you are 100% responsible for your own success. If that's the case, you're the first such person that I've ever met." I'm still not sure what your point is. It seems to only be brought up when anyone successful achieves anything great or when someone wants an excuse as to why they can't succeed. I also said luck has less than 1% to do with it. I know people that were in my exact same position at the exact same time. They chose to do things differently and now are working paycheck-to-paycheck. I saved my money (instead of buying the new $500 android phone when it came out) and now I don't have to worry about emergencies because I have enough money to pay for it. I'm really just tired of people not taking personal responsibility for their actions.
jstedfast 15y ago
I can't believe you got downvoted. No, wait, yes I can... this is HN, domain of the liberal "it's society's fault" left.

by rick888 15y ago

scarmig 15y ago

Just like those workers who saw that housing was booming in 2004 and decided to join that industry, eh? Of course, tech bubbles never exist, so that's an imperfect analogy.

_delirium 15y ago

You must be an odd person if you have equal aptitudes and passion for a huge range of things, and can choose them based solely on current economic demand. Few to no people I know in tech are like that, though. I'd be into hacker culture if the field was full of shit jobs; the way some people live and breathe music and can't imagine doing anything else, others can't imagine not doing something that involves hacking technology. It's just sugar on top that there's all this money floating around in the field too. I mean, I got hooked on computers when I was 6 or 7, from Logo. I'm pretty sure I didn't get hooked due to my great foresight and economic responsibility. It was just interesting. Other people get hooked on other things, whether it's math or music. I'm fortunate that my thing pays well, but I don't think that makes me better than them. Makes my life easier, sure, but for exogenous reasons. I don't think it's uncorrelated with merit, but I do think the correlation is very inconsistent. I know brilliant mathematicians with much poorer incomes, for example (pure math doesn't pay well... despite its long-term usefulness, it's hard to capture the value / monetize it).

nick_urban 15y ago

I started programming because I was fascinated by computers. It wasn't until years later that I found out it was a lucrative job. It sounds like your recommendation would be for everyone to chase money regardless of their passions. You have to admit that people who are passionate about things that pay well get a better deal in that situation. There are a lot of things that are worthwhile that are not well rewarded economically. If all of the artists and idealists disappeared and we were only left with money-chasers, the world would be that much poorer. Also, regarding success: hard work and intelligence matter a lot, but so does opportunity. Have a look at Gladwell's Outliers for an interesting analysis of this.

rick888 15y ago
"It sounds like your recommendation would be for everyone to chase money regardless of their passions." If you don't think about the money at some point, then don't complain when you can't find a job. It's not your job to chase money and it's not society's job to pay you for something that's worthless. "You have to admit that people who are passionate about things that pay well get a better deal in that situation." You can make money with almost any passion, you just need to be smart enough to find the market. Most people want to be handed it...which just isn't going to happen. "Also, regarding success: hard work and intelligence matter a lot, but so does opportunity. Have a look at Gladwell's Outliers for an interesting analysis of this." I don't need to. I see opportunities every day that people in my exact same position at the exact time (at work for instance) miss. Why? Because I have the skills and experience and I know what I'm looking for. Without the skills, knowledge, and experience, the opportunity is worthless. The more knowledge and skills you have, the more opportunities you will see and the better chance you have at becoming successful. It's really sad to see so many people equating success with pure luck.
michaelchisari 15y ago
Plus, there's the negative effect of having our market flooded with people who go into programming "because that's where the money is". I'm as critical as anyone when people decide to get liberal arts degrees without at least working on other skills on the side, but let's not be so naive to think that if a CS degree was the new liberal arts degree, that we wouldn't be having the same exact problem in society. Only we (people on HN) would probably be making much less money.

gsoltis 15y ago

In some sense, I sympathize with you. I too have worked hard and been successful. I chose (out of passion, but I don't begrudge those who chose based on economics) to go into engineering while friends of mine went into less lucrative fields. I myself was fortunate. Lucky, to be honest. My parents took advantage of things like student loans so that they could work hard and be successful. The result was that I didn't have to worry about student loans and graduated without debt. I worked hard to graduate, but I don't have illusions that my financial situation was anything other than luck on my part. You may not call it luck, and I don't know your specific situation, but I'm going to hypothesize that you had some help along the way. How did you educate yourself? How did you pay for it? Did you go to a public school system? Was it better than the ones that exist now? Did you go to a private school? Did you pay for it yourself? My point is, we often take this sort of assistance for granted, and it is gratifying to credit ourselves with 100% of our success. Maybe you are 100% responsible for your own success. If that's the case, you're the first such person that I've ever met.

rick888 15y ago
"You may not call it luck, and I don't know your specific situation, but I'm going to hypothesize that you had some help along the way. How did you educate yourself? " We could go very far with attributing luck to success. Einstein must have been very lucky to come up with the theory of relativity. In fact, everything we do must be due to luck because it's lucky our planet is in a position from the sun that's habitable. "How did you educate yourself" By going to the library in the beginning (which is free) and then later through the Internet (which is also now free at almost any library in the US). Most people in Highschool and in college are out partying every weekend with their friends..and then they wonder why they aren't successful when it comes to getting a job. I chose to sacrifice my time to learn things that I knew would help advance my career. "How did you pay for it?" With a crappy retail job that didn't really have much to do with my career. "Did you go to a public school system". Yes. "My point is, we often take this sort of assistance for granted, and it is gratifying to credit ourselves with 100% of our success. Maybe you are 100% responsible for your own success. If that's the case, you're the first such person that I've ever met." I'm still not sure what your point is. It seems to only be brought up when anyone successful achieves anything great or when someone wants an excuse as to why they can't succeed. I also said luck has less than 1% to do with it. I know people that were in my exact same position at the exact same time. They chose to do things differently and now are working paycheck-to-paycheck. I saved my money (instead of buying the new $500 android phone when it came out) and now I don't have to worry about emergencies because I have enough money to pay for it. I'm really just tired of people not taking personal responsibility for their actions.

jstedfast 15y ago

I can't believe you got downvoted. No, wait, yes I can... this is HN, domain of the liberal "it's society's fault" left.