5 ms·

>my honest impression is that for several forms of cancer the current state of "orthodox" treatment Unless you're a specialist with an expert opinion in islet

>my honest impression is that for several forms of cancer the current state of "orthodox" treatment Unless you're a specialist with an expert opinion in islet cell carcinoma, your comment is 100% meaningless. Look, Steve was a human. He was flawed. He had a relationship with alternative medicine. He's not perfect. No one is. A lot of people give in to the woo for some many reasons. He was a billionaire, educated, had access to the world's experts, and known for his amazing horse-sense, yet he gave in. I like this story because Steve is so high profile. I can pull this out and mention it next time a friend considers these approaches instead of going to a real doctor.

Alex3917 15y ago
"He had a relationship with alternative medicine." Naturopathy isn't really alternative medicine, although some of the schools do teach things from alternative medicine. For the most part it's just as evidence-based as anything else. The N.D. curriculum isn't all that much different than that of the average M.D. program: http://www.bridgeport.edu/academics/graduate/naturo/programreqs http://www.bridgeport.edu/academics/graduate/naturo/programr... The big exception being perhaps the 5 credits on homeopathy, which seems overkill to me, but then again the average M.D. doesn't learn nearly enough about homeopathy considering how important it was in popularizing evidence-based medicine and introducing all sorts of other reforms that have saved millions of lives over the past 150 years. (Even JAMA publicly credits homeopathy with introducing evidence-based medicine: http://bit.ly/qqU59B http://bit.ly/qqU59B)
- burgerbrain 15y ago
  Dangerous misinformation. "Naturopathy, or Naturopathic Medicine, is a form of alternative medicine...." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturopathy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturopathy
  - Alex3917 15y ago
    Digital maoism.
    - burgerbrain 15y ago
      Not a counterargument.
  - mechnik 15y ago
    Please check your facts. Naturopathy may or may not equate Naturopathic Medicine legally. Naturopathic doctors who graduate from accredited programs can be licensed as primary care physicians, for example in Washington state. States which do not regulate naturopathic medicine will often have charlatans advertise themselves as NDs. Unaccredited correspondence schools offering various flavors of diploma mill fare have been extremely vociferous fighting regulation of naturopathic medicine. More information at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Naturopathic_Medicine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Naturopathic_Medicine Term 'naturopath' itself may or may not be protected depending on the state. California licensed naturopathic doctors starting in 2003. However, title 'naturopath' is not protected. See P.3645 http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/03-04/bill/sen/sb_0901-0950/sb_907_bill_20030922_chaptered.html http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/03-04/bill/sen/sb_0901-0950/sb....
    - carbocation 15y ago
      Sort of. They cannot prescribe medications, which is a pretty big part of being a physician, primary care or otherwise. http://www.doh.wa.gov/hsqa/professions/documents/PrescribingAuthority.pdf http://www.doh.wa.gov/hsqa/professions/documents/Prescribing...
      - mechnik 15y ago
        According to your link, they can write out prescriptions with the exception of controlled substances other than codeine and testosterone: "Controlled substance prescription are limited to testosterone and codeinecontaining substances in Schedules III-V." More on controlled substances: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled_Substances_Act http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled_Substances_Act
    - burgerbrain 15y ago
      Legal status is irrelevant.
- bryanlarsen 15y ago
  "By definition, alternative medicine has either not been proved to work or has been proved not to work. You know what they call alternative medicine that has been proved to work? Medicine." - Tim Minchin via hugh3 (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3080438 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3080438)
- benjohnson 15y ago
  "evidence-based as anything else" != "5 credits on homeopathy"
- monkeypizza 15y ago
  Homeopathy is not just alternative, it's downright crazy. I didn't realize how weird it is until I read the wikipedia article on it during an argument. Take a look at some of this genuine 19th century wackiness! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy
  - Alex3917 15y ago
    Yeah, but if you don't understand homeopathy then you can't really understand modern medicine. Our entire medical system today is a byproduct of the clash between homeopaths and allopathic doctors that happened in the late 19th century.
    - ginolomelino 15y ago
      You have it backwards. In order to understand why homeopathy doesn't work, you have to have at least a little knowledge on why modern medicine actually does work. The lack of that knowledge is what homeopaths prey on.
- ScottBurson 15y ago
  To the downvoters: Downvoting is not supposed to be used to express disagreement. The comment was submitted with constructive intent. Alex3917's beliefs are very different from yours -- I get that. Debate is appropriate here; downvoting the comment to oblivion is not.
  - xnxn 15y ago
    Sorry, but I disagree. I don't want to see alternative medicine advocacy here; as superstition it is antithetical to the hacker philosophy. Would that I could downvote in meatspace and relegate this nonsense to oblivion, where it belongs.
    - Alex3917 15y ago
      So you don't believe in medical research? After all, anyone who participates in a new drug investigation is by definition a consumer of 'alternative medicine', assuming you're going by the definition that others have been posting in this thread. For my money, I don't see what could possibly be more in the spirit of the hacker philosophy than being a medical researcher, trial candidate, or early adopter. The reason the average person is able to walk into a doctors office today and usually get at least decent advice is because of the millions before them who have been willing to do the research, think for themselves, weigh the balance of evidence, make rational decisions, and document their findings. The fact is that if Steve had died while taking part in a new drug trial as part of a clinical investigation then no one would be giving him shit; that folks are so dismissive of 'alternative' medicine has nothing to do with proven vs unproven, as if it were black and white, and everything to do with ignorance of how medical research, approval, and treatment actually work. There are hundreds of thousands of drugs that have been studies in vitro, in animals, and in humans, but only ~1,500 new chemicals total that have ever been FDA approved. Treating FDA approval as being synonymous with evidence-based thinking just shows that people don't actually understand either. Some people don't use a drug unless it's been on the market for 20+ years, other people will try something based on a single anecdote. There is no one right answer, it depends on the balance of the evidence, ancillary beliefs, preferences, the context, etc. The right decision is different for every person and every situation, so all this purely speculative criticism of Steve Jobs' decision-making process is completely unwarranted.

Alex3917 15y ago

"He had a relationship with alternative medicine." Naturopathy isn't really alternative medicine, although some of the schools do teach things from alternative medicine. For the most part it's just as evidence-based as anything else. The N.D. curriculum isn't all that much different than that of the average M.D. program: http://www.bridgeport.edu/academics/graduate/naturo/programreqs http://www.bridgeport.edu/academics/graduate/naturo/programr... The big exception being perhaps the 5 credits on homeopathy, which seems overkill to me, but then again the average M.D. doesn't learn nearly enough about homeopathy considering how important it was in popularizing evidence-based medicine and introducing all sorts of other reforms that have saved millions of lives over the past 150 years. (Even JAMA publicly credits homeopathy with introducing evidence-based medicine: http://bit.ly/qqU59B http://bit.ly/qqU59B)

burgerbrain 15y ago
Dangerous misinformation. "Naturopathy, or Naturopathic Medicine, is a form of alternative medicine...." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturopathy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturopathy
- Alex3917 15y ago
  Digital maoism.
  - burgerbrain 15y ago
    Not a counterargument.
- mechnik 15y ago
  Please check your facts. Naturopathy may or may not equate Naturopathic Medicine legally. Naturopathic doctors who graduate from accredited programs can be licensed as primary care physicians, for example in Washington state. States which do not regulate naturopathic medicine will often have charlatans advertise themselves as NDs. Unaccredited correspondence schools offering various flavors of diploma mill fare have been extremely vociferous fighting regulation of naturopathic medicine. More information at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Naturopathic_Medicine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Naturopathic_Medicine Term 'naturopath' itself may or may not be protected depending on the state. California licensed naturopathic doctors starting in 2003. However, title 'naturopath' is not protected. See P.3645 http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/03-04/bill/sen/sb_0901-0950/sb_907_bill_20030922_chaptered.html http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/03-04/bill/sen/sb_0901-0950/sb....
  - carbocation 15y ago
    Sort of. They cannot prescribe medications, which is a pretty big part of being a physician, primary care or otherwise. http://www.doh.wa.gov/hsqa/professions/documents/PrescribingAuthority.pdf http://www.doh.wa.gov/hsqa/professions/documents/Prescribing...
    - mechnik 15y ago
      According to your link, they can write out prescriptions with the exception of controlled substances other than codeine and testosterone: "Controlled substance prescription are limited to testosterone and codeinecontaining substances in Schedules III-V." More on controlled substances: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled_Substances_Act http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled_Substances_Act
  - burgerbrain 15y ago
    Legal status is irrelevant.
bryanlarsen 15y ago
"By definition, alternative medicine has either not been proved to work or has been proved not to work. You know what they call alternative medicine that has been proved to work? Medicine." - Tim Minchin via hugh3 (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3080438 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3080438)
benjohnson 15y ago
"evidence-based as anything else" != "5 credits on homeopathy"
monkeypizza 15y ago
Homeopathy is not just alternative, it's downright crazy. I didn't realize how weird it is until I read the wikipedia article on it during an argument. Take a look at some of this genuine 19th century wackiness! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy
- Alex3917 15y ago
  Yeah, but if you don't understand homeopathy then you can't really understand modern medicine. Our entire medical system today is a byproduct of the clash between homeopaths and allopathic doctors that happened in the late 19th century.
  - ginolomelino 15y ago
    You have it backwards. In order to understand why homeopathy doesn't work, you have to have at least a little knowledge on why modern medicine actually does work. The lack of that knowledge is what homeopaths prey on.
ScottBurson 15y ago
To the downvoters: Downvoting is not supposed to be used to express disagreement. The comment was submitted with constructive intent. Alex3917's beliefs are very different from yours -- I get that. Debate is appropriate here; downvoting the comment to oblivion is not.
- xnxn 15y ago
  Sorry, but I disagree. I don't want to see alternative medicine advocacy here; as superstition it is antithetical to the hacker philosophy. Would that I could downvote in meatspace and relegate this nonsense to oblivion, where it belongs.
  - Alex3917 15y ago
    So you don't believe in medical research? After all, anyone who participates in a new drug investigation is by definition a consumer of 'alternative medicine', assuming you're going by the definition that others have been posting in this thread. For my money, I don't see what could possibly be more in the spirit of the hacker philosophy than being a medical researcher, trial candidate, or early adopter. The reason the average person is able to walk into a doctors office today and usually get at least decent advice is because of the millions before them who have been willing to do the research, think for themselves, weigh the balance of evidence, make rational decisions, and document their findings. The fact is that if Steve had died while taking part in a new drug trial as part of a clinical investigation then no one would be giving him shit; that folks are so dismissive of 'alternative' medicine has nothing to do with proven vs unproven, as if it were black and white, and everything to do with ignorance of how medical research, approval, and treatment actually work. There are hundreds of thousands of drugs that have been studies in vitro, in animals, and in humans, but only ~1,500 new chemicals total that have ever been FDA approved. Treating FDA approval as being synonymous with evidence-based thinking just shows that people don't actually understand either. Some people don't use a drug unless it's been on the market for 20+ years, other people will try something based on a single anecdote. There is no one right answer, it depends on the balance of the evidence, ancillary beliefs, preferences, the context, etc. The right decision is different for every person and every situation, so all this purely speculative criticism of Steve Jobs' decision-making process is completely unwarranted.