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I like Fisher's theoretical stuff a lot but I never was a fan of that piece, because it reeks of personal animosity towards newer generations on the left. It's

I like Fisher's theoretical stuff a lot but I never was a fan of that piece, because it reeks of personal animosity towards newer generations on the left. It's very typical with old left Brits who couldn't get over the fact that class struggle isn't going to bring anyone into the streets any more, it's the kind of piece that is ten times more likely to be quoted on a conservative site than anywhere else. And when one looks at British Labour politics in the years after this piece was written Fisher kind of got his wish, and it was an absolute electoral dead end.

zozbot234 5y ago
These days, anti-COVID protest is what brings people to the streets. A few years back, it was all about wearing yellow vests and protesting gas tax hikes that harm small business.
tablespoon 5y ago
> I like Fisher's theoretical stuff a lot but I never was a fan of that piece, because it reeks of personal animosity towards newer generations on the left. That may be so, but it doesn't mean there's nothing to it. Those "newer generations on the left" tend to think and behave in ways that can be pretty alienating to the rest of society, and so doom their prospects.
- jonathankoren 5y ago
  This is always said, but it is never true. The olds die, and the youngs become the old. As Abe Simpsons famously said, "I used to be with ‘it’, but then they changed what ‘it’ was. Now what I’m with isn’t ‘it’ anymore and what’s ‘it’ seems weird and scary. It’ll happen to you!"
  - tablespoon 5y ago
    >> That may be so, but it doesn't mean there's nothing to it. Those "newer generations on the left" tend to think and behave in ways that can be pretty alienating to the rest of society, and so doom their prospects. > This is always said, but it is never true. The olds die, and the youngs become the old. > As Abe Simpsons famously said, "I used to be with ‘it’, but then they changed what ‘it’ was. Now what I’m with isn’t ‘it’ anymore and what’s ‘it’ seems weird and scary. It’ll happen to you!" Yeah, but just because some "it" is current doesn't mean it's better. It's quite possible the hip new thing is just the youngs wondering off on a detour and getting lost.
  - slothtrop 5y ago
    This presumes the difference of opinion is purely generational.
orhmeh09 5y ago
Substantive criticism would be interesting, but you're not really saying anything about what he's saying. You're dismissing it based on who you think is likely to quote it today.
- morelisp 5y ago
  "Class struggle isn't going to bring anyone into the streets any more" and pointing out the absolute moribund labor party under Corbyn seems to me to be substantive criticism. I also strain to find really substantive criticism in Fisher's original piece. "Russell Brand as popular left vanguard" has not really aged well, he's done the standard turn from proto-dirtbag-left to exactly the kind of media-talking-head-dumbass the leftists Fisher decries predicted he would. I am broadly (but weakly) class-first in my leftism, but the kind of purity Fisher is demanding is bad tactics, but also counter-materialist. Race exists orthogonally to class but still has material implications - which is simply to say, black people still get profiled by cops even if they own a factory. For a good analysis of this, see Racecraft: The Soul of Inequality in American Life by Barbara and Karen Fields. Conversely, "the means of production" is not what it used to be - capital operates correlated but not identical to control over information vectors, and owners of those vectors exercise great power over people who can control their own production but not the distribution of it; see McKenzie Wark's Capital is Dead: Is This Something Worse? The left is traditionally focused on class because Marxism, via materialism, made strong arguments this was the lynchpin of inequity. But if you run that same materialist analysis today, the evidence for class's primary, let alone a sui generis status, is the weakest it has ever been.
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    > which is simply to say, black people still get profiled by cops even if they own a factory. You'd be surprised. While basic prejudice of course exists, much commonplace "profiling" is simply driven by statistical signals that happen to correlate with various sorts of bad behavior. Socially aware minorities who wish to actively mitigate this part of the problem (which is otherwise the hardest to address, for fairly obvious reasons) might want to start dressing up with suit and tie when out in public, and driving cars that are nicely-maintained but not too "blingy". Of course, this goes to show the extent to which police profiling is in fact about broader notions of class and subculture, and not limited to race.
ttjjtt 5y ago
This infers that young left is a unified in its belief on this, which is demonstrably untrue. The popularity of alt left podcasts from recent years (chapo, red scare, etc) is an expression of this disunity. Major sections of young left are alienated on the lib/woke sidelining of class. The old Brit disconnected left has resonance but also hand waves away the new divisions. Edit:spelling, clarity

zozbot234 5y ago

These days, anti-COVID protest is what brings people to the streets. A few years back, it was all about wearing yellow vests and protesting gas tax hikes that harm small business.

tablespoon 5y ago

> I like Fisher's theoretical stuff a lot but I never was a fan of that piece, because it reeks of personal animosity towards newer generations on the left. That may be so, but it doesn't mean there's nothing to it. Those "newer generations on the left" tend to think and behave in ways that can be pretty alienating to the rest of society, and so doom their prospects.

jonathankoren 5y ago
This is always said, but it is never true. The olds die, and the youngs become the old. As Abe Simpsons famously said, "I used to be with ‘it’, but then they changed what ‘it’ was. Now what I’m with isn’t ‘it’ anymore and what’s ‘it’ seems weird and scary. It’ll happen to you!"
- tablespoon 5y ago
  >> That may be so, but it doesn't mean there's nothing to it. Those "newer generations on the left" tend to think and behave in ways that can be pretty alienating to the rest of society, and so doom their prospects. > This is always said, but it is never true. The olds die, and the youngs become the old. > As Abe Simpsons famously said, "I used to be with ‘it’, but then they changed what ‘it’ was. Now what I’m with isn’t ‘it’ anymore and what’s ‘it’ seems weird and scary. It’ll happen to you!" Yeah, but just because some "it" is current doesn't mean it's better. It's quite possible the hip new thing is just the youngs wondering off on a detour and getting lost.
- slothtrop 5y ago
  This presumes the difference of opinion is purely generational.

orhmeh09 5y ago

Substantive criticism would be interesting, but you're not really saying anything about what he's saying. You're dismissing it based on who you think is likely to quote it today.

morelisp 5y ago
"Class struggle isn't going to bring anyone into the streets any more" and pointing out the absolute moribund labor party under Corbyn seems to me to be substantive criticism. I also strain to find really substantive criticism in Fisher's original piece. "Russell Brand as popular left vanguard" has not really aged well, he's done the standard turn from proto-dirtbag-left to exactly the kind of media-talking-head-dumbass the leftists Fisher decries predicted he would. I am broadly (but weakly) class-first in my leftism, but the kind of purity Fisher is demanding is bad tactics, but also counter-materialist. Race exists orthogonally to class but still has material implications - which is simply to say, black people still get profiled by cops even if they own a factory. For a good analysis of this, see Racecraft: The Soul of Inequality in American Life by Barbara and Karen Fields. Conversely, "the means of production" is not what it used to be - capital operates correlated but not identical to control over information vectors, and owners of those vectors exercise great power over people who can control their own production but not the distribution of it; see McKenzie Wark's Capital is Dead: Is This Something Worse? The left is traditionally focused on class because Marxism, via materialism, made strong arguments this was the lynchpin of inequity. But if you run that same materialist analysis today, the evidence for class's primary, let alone a sui generis status, is the weakest it has ever been.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  > which is simply to say, black people still get profiled by cops even if they own a factory. You'd be surprised. While basic prejudice of course exists, much commonplace "profiling" is simply driven by statistical signals that happen to correlate with various sorts of bad behavior. Socially aware minorities who wish to actively mitigate this part of the problem (which is otherwise the hardest to address, for fairly obvious reasons) might want to start dressing up with suit and tie when out in public, and driving cars that are nicely-maintained but not too "blingy". Of course, this goes to show the extent to which police profiling is in fact about broader notions of class and subculture, and not limited to race.

ttjjtt 5y ago

This infers that young left is a unified in its belief on this, which is demonstrably untrue. The popularity of alt left podcasts from recent years (chapo, red scare, etc) is an expression of this disunity. Major sections of young left are alienated on the lib/woke sidelining of class. The old Brit disconnected left has resonance but also hand waves away the new divisions. Edit:spelling, clarity