5 ms·

Great reply. I thought the OP toxic enough to make one ill.

by mechnik 15y ago

burgerbrain 15y ago
The thought of bullshit fake medicine taking another life should be enough to make anyone feel ill.
- mechnik 15y ago
  Speak for yourself.
  - burgerbrain 15y ago
    I am. "Should be enough" is very clearly an opinion. My opinion is that it should be enough to make anyone fill ill, because everyone should approach the matter rationally. The fact is that alternative 'medicine' is not rational.
    - mechnik 15y ago
      You are welcome to your opinion.
    - hugh3 15y ago
      "By definition, alternative medicine has either not been proved to work or has been proved not to work. You know what they call alternative medicine that has been proved to work? Medicine." - Tim Minchin
      - burgerbrain 15y ago
        Absolutely brilliant :) For those not familiar with Tim Minchin's work: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U
      - pella 15y ago
        see this journal: "Evidence-Based Complementary and Alternative Medicine (eCAM) is an international, peer-reviewed journal that seeks to understand the sources and to encourage rigorous research in this new, yet ancient world of complementary and alternative medicine." http://www.hindawi.com/journals/ecam/ http://www.hindawi.com/journals/ecam/
        burgerbrain 15y ago
        The point being made here is that if something has been proven to work, it is no longer alternative medicine. "Evidence based alternative" is a contradiction.
        pella 15y ago
        Alternative medicine is any healing practice: "that does not fall within the realm of conventional medicine." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_medicine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_medicine
        burgerbrain 15y ago
        "Conventional medicine" being "medicine for which there actually exists evidence of it working."
        pella 15y ago
        source ? don't forget : 51% Unknown effectiveness .. http://clinicalevidence.bmj.com/ceweb/about/knowledge.jsp http://clinicalevidence.bmj.com/ceweb/about/knowledge.jsp one example "Unknown effectiveness" "Pancreatic cancer New option(s) added for: Chemoradiotherapy for resected pancreatic cancer One long-term follow-up study added. It found no significant difference between adjuvant chemoradiotherapy and surgery alone for overall survival or progression-free survival at 11.7 years' follow-up. Categorisation unchanged (Unknown effectiveness), as the evidence is not strong enough to draw definitive conclusion."
KirinDave 15y ago
So you're defending the idea that cancer can be halted by diet. Anyone who speaks out against that is toxic? If all people had to do to halt cancer is vary their diet, far fewer people would succumb to the malady. The only way you can make that work is by taking a derisive and dismissive attitude to everyone, saying they must be too stupid and stubborn to want to live; moreover you must also posit that all doctors involved in oncology are evil and ignoring the facts. This seems like a far more toxic worldview than quiet regret that Steve isn't still with us that I get from this article.
- pella 15y ago
  INTENSIVE LIFESTYLE CHANGES MAY AFFECT THE PROGRESSION OF PROSTATE CANCER http://www.abundantwellbeing.com/Nischala/CancerStudyOrnish.pdf http://www.abundantwellbeing.com/Nischala/CancerStudyOrnish.... "Purpose: Men with prostate cancer are often advised to make changes in diet and lifestyle, although the impact of these changes has not been well documented. Therefore, we evaluated the effects of comprehensive lifestyle changes on prostate specific antigen (PSA), treatment trends and serum stimulated LNCaP cell growth in men with early, biopsy proven prostate cancer after 1 year ... Conclusions: Intensive lifestyle changes may affect the progression of early, low grade prostate cancer in men. Further studies and longer term followup are warranted." DOI: 10.1097/01.ju.0000169487.49018.73 ===== and .... "Clinical Events in Prostate Cancer Lifestyle Trial: Results From Two Years of Follow-Up" http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0090429508005414 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0090429508... "Changes in prostate gene expression in men undergoing an intensive nutrition and lifestyle intervention" http://www.pnas.org/content/105/24/8369.short http://www.pnas.org/content/105/24/8369.short "Increased telomerase activity and comprehensive lifestyle changes: a pilot study" http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1470204508702341 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1470204508... "Can lifestyle changes reverse coronary heart disease?: The Lifestyle Heart Trial" http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/014067369091656U http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/01406736909...
  - KirinDave 15y ago
    Please show me where in these documents it recommends ignoring other treatments and I will upmod your post. The idea that "diet" is alternative is ludicrous. What's alternative is "curing cancer" with diet. The science of how diets affect cancer—and the resulting medical advice that falls out—is an open and somewhat understood topic and a good part of a whole spectrum of treatment; one that all indications suggested were ignored in this case. I always think it's funny that naturopaths say they're treating the "whole patient" but almost inevitably they focus on ONE THING that CURES EVERYTHING, whereas doctors come at the problem with a whole spectrum of tools ranging from diet and lifestyle to chemical interventions.

Great reply. I thought the OP toxic enough to make one ill.

by mechnik 15y ago

Great reply. I thought the OP toxic enough to make one ill.

burgerbrain 15y ago

The thought of bullshit fake medicine taking another life should be enough to make anyone feel ill.

mechnik 15y ago
Speak for yourself.
- burgerbrain 15y ago
  I am. "Should be enough" is very clearly an opinion. My opinion is that it should be enough to make anyone fill ill, because everyone should approach the matter rationally. The fact is that alternative 'medicine' is not rational.
  - mechnik 15y ago
    You are welcome to your opinion.
  - hugh3 15y ago
    "By definition, alternative medicine has either not been proved to work or has been proved not to work. You know what they call alternative medicine that has been proved to work? Medicine." - Tim Minchin
    - burgerbrain 15y ago
      Absolutely brilliant :) For those not familiar with Tim Minchin's work: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U
    - pella 15y ago
      see this journal: "Evidence-Based Complementary and Alternative Medicine (eCAM) is an international, peer-reviewed journal that seeks to understand the sources and to encourage rigorous research in this new, yet ancient world of complementary and alternative medicine." http://www.hindawi.com/journals/ecam/ http://www.hindawi.com/journals/ecam/
      - burgerbrain 15y ago
        The point being made here is that if something has been proven to work, it is no longer alternative medicine. "Evidence based alternative" is a contradiction.
        pella 15y ago
        Alternative medicine is any healing practice: "that does not fall within the realm of conventional medicine." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_medicine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_medicine
        burgerbrain 15y ago
        "Conventional medicine" being "medicine for which there actually exists evidence of it working."
        pella 15y ago
        source ? don't forget : 51% Unknown effectiveness .. http://clinicalevidence.bmj.com/ceweb/about/knowledge.jsp http://clinicalevidence.bmj.com/ceweb/about/knowledge.jsp one example "Unknown effectiveness" "Pancreatic cancer New option(s) added for: Chemoradiotherapy for resected pancreatic cancer One long-term follow-up study added. It found no significant difference between adjuvant chemoradiotherapy and surgery alone for overall survival or progression-free survival at 11.7 years' follow-up. Categorisation unchanged (Unknown effectiveness), as the evidence is not strong enough to draw definitive conclusion."

KirinDave 15y ago

So you're defending the idea that cancer can be halted by diet. Anyone who speaks out against that is toxic? If all people had to do to halt cancer is vary their diet, far fewer people would succumb to the malady. The only way you can make that work is by taking a derisive and dismissive attitude to everyone, saying they must be too stupid and stubborn to want to live; moreover you must also posit that all doctors involved in oncology are evil and ignoring the facts. This seems like a far more toxic worldview than quiet regret that Steve isn't still with us that I get from this article.

pella 15y ago
INTENSIVE LIFESTYLE CHANGES MAY AFFECT THE PROGRESSION OF PROSTATE CANCER http://www.abundantwellbeing.com/Nischala/CancerStudyOrnish.pdf http://www.abundantwellbeing.com/Nischala/CancerStudyOrnish.... "Purpose: Men with prostate cancer are often advised to make changes in diet and lifestyle, although the impact of these changes has not been well documented. Therefore, we evaluated the effects of comprehensive lifestyle changes on prostate specific antigen (PSA), treatment trends and serum stimulated LNCaP cell growth in men with early, biopsy proven prostate cancer after 1 year ... Conclusions: Intensive lifestyle changes may affect the progression of early, low grade prostate cancer in men. Further studies and longer term followup are warranted." DOI: 10.1097/01.ju.0000169487.49018.73 ===== and .... "Clinical Events in Prostate Cancer Lifestyle Trial: Results From Two Years of Follow-Up" http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0090429508005414 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0090429508... "Changes in prostate gene expression in men undergoing an intensive nutrition and lifestyle intervention" http://www.pnas.org/content/105/24/8369.short http://www.pnas.org/content/105/24/8369.short "Increased telomerase activity and comprehensive lifestyle changes: a pilot study" http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1470204508702341 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1470204508... "Can lifestyle changes reverse coronary heart disease?: The Lifestyle Heart Trial" http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/014067369091656U http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/01406736909...
- KirinDave 15y ago
  Please show me where in these documents it recommends ignoring other treatments and I will upmod your post. The idea that "diet" is alternative is ludicrous. What's alternative is "curing cancer" with diet. The science of how diets affect cancer—and the resulting medical advice that falls out—is an open and somewhat understood topic and a good part of a whole spectrum of treatment; one that all indications suggested were ignored in this case. I always think it's funny that naturopaths say they're treating the "whole patient" but almost inevitably they focus on ONE THING that CURES EVERYTHING, whereas doctors come at the problem with a whole spectrum of tools ranging from diet and lifestyle to chemical interventions.