6 ms·

The reports of Jobs' treatment elections are conjecture. "although neither Apple nor those close to Jobs were willing to discuss the treatments he elected or t

by thwest 15y ago

The reports of Jobs' treatment elections are conjecture. "although neither Apple nor those close to Jobs were willing to discuss the treatments he elected or the course of his disease," the community continues to assume that rumors about Job's health coming out of financial publications (Forbes) are somehow accurate. This post is trite and condescending no matter how long it came after Jobs’ death. Dealing with death is a personal matter. You have no right to demand that anyone submit themselves to the cold, alienated approach of aggressive medical treatment. Let people pass with dignity, however they choose. The purpose of life is not to be a mobile mass of cells for as long as technologically possible. In fact, the statistics show that people who skip the N+1th round of chemo and switch to hospice care have better outcomes. http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/02/100802fa_fact_gawande http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/02/100802fa_fact_...

recoiledsnake 15y ago
>This post is trite and condescending no matter how long it came after Jobs’ death. Dealing with death is a personal matter. You have no right to demand that anyone submit themselves to the cold, alienated approach of aggressive medical treatment. Let people pass with dignity, however they choose. Don't know why you're taking it this way but (assuming that it's true, need more facts from reliable sources) this is more of a warning to people not to get taken in by alternative medicine alone and to be a little skeptical of it as a cure-all.
bryanlarsen 15y ago
We're not talking about the N+1th round of chemo here. According the article, it was the 1st round of treatment he skipped, the one that probably would have saved his life. More than just saving his life, it should have given him a good quality of life for many years.
burgerbrain 15y ago
The general public cannot be expected to make a responsible decision concerning alternative 'medicine' if they are not aware of the facts and situation. If this article is to be believed, it's rather clear that Steve Jobs wasn't content to 'die in dignity' (how is it dignified to reject medicine? baffling...), and turned to science based medicine towards the end. Had he been more aware, he could perhaps be alive today. The best legacy Steve Jobs could possibly have is to raise awareness of woo and it's woo-isms, so that perhaps just a few more people don't die unnecessarily.
- secretasiandan 15y ago
  I wholeheartedly agree, but want to point out that for him to do so is to cast doubt on the cult of personality and product that he created.
wisty 15y ago
Once a cancer is metastatic, I guess it's just a question of quality-of-life vs extending-the-time-you-have. Last-ditch chemo is pointless if you have to go anyway. But people who get an operation immediately, then get chemo survive much better than the ones who wait for the tumor to get big and / or metastatic. You don't want to do what many people do - prevaricate till it's too late, then try the heroic (but sometimes counter-productive) last-ditch measures. Let's just say: if this causes a few of us to see a doctor earlier, and thus saves a few lives (well, improve the quality and quantity of the days we have left), wouldn't that make it worthwhile?
- Florin_Andrei 15y ago
  > Once a cancer is metastatic, I guess it's just a question of quality-of-life vs extending-the-time-you-have. Not anymore (and not always, anyway). There are some forms of cancer that can currently be kept in check indefinitely, with next-gen chemo.
mechnik 15y ago
Great reply. I thought the OP toxic enough to make one ill.
- burgerbrain 15y ago
  The thought of bullshit fake medicine taking another life should be enough to make anyone feel ill.
  - mechnik 15y ago
    Speak for yourself.
    - burgerbrain 15y ago
      I am. "Should be enough" is very clearly an opinion. My opinion is that it should be enough to make anyone fill ill, because everyone should approach the matter rationally. The fact is that alternative 'medicine' is not rational.
      - mechnik 15y ago
        You are welcome to your opinion.
      - hugh3 15y ago
        "By definition, alternative medicine has either not been proved to work or has been proved not to work. You know what they call alternative medicine that has been proved to work? Medicine." - Tim Minchin
        burgerbrain 15y ago
        Absolutely brilliant :) For those not familiar with Tim Minchin's work: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U
        pella 15y ago
achompas 15y ago
I have to disagree here. The author might be insensitive for raising this point so soon, but that doesn't diminish the point's validity. There's a difference between "Steve Jobs survived with cancer for 5 years" and "Steve Jobs barely reached half the median survival rate for his type of cancer." No one has reported on this point.
zeteo 15y ago
> the statistics show that people who skip the N+1th round of chemo and switch to hospice care have better outcomes. Have you even read the article? This was not a case of choice between living two months with chemo or one month without. The cancer was detected early enough and the treatment prospects were excellent. But, no doubt influenced by irresponsible propaganda about the "cold, alienated approach of aggressive medical treatment", Jobs decided to wait a few crucial months while trying alternative medicine (and had the surgery anyways, except with less favorable prospects, due to the delay).
CWuestefeld 15y ago
Actually, the damage is deeper than the [direct] loss caused by Jobs' (what I consider poor) judgment. Remember that when his Plan A didn't work, he needed to fall back to a liver transplant. Transplantable livers don't grow on trees; it's likely that by using this liver, someone else didn't get it. It's quite conceivable, then, that Jobs' decision cost not only his own life, but another person's as well. UPDATE: clarify first sentence by adding "direct".
- hyperbovine 15y ago
  What if the next person on the list was also using alternative therapy to treat cancer?

by thwest 15y ago

recoiledsnake 15y ago

>This post is trite and condescending no matter how long it came after Jobs’ death. Dealing with death is a personal matter. You have no right to demand that anyone submit themselves to the cold, alienated approach of aggressive medical treatment. Let people pass with dignity, however they choose. Don't know why you're taking it this way but (assuming that it's true, need more facts from reliable sources) this is more of a warning to people not to get taken in by alternative medicine alone and to be a little skeptical of it as a cure-all.

bryanlarsen 15y ago

We're not talking about the N+1th round of chemo here. According the article, it was the 1st round of treatment he skipped, the one that probably would have saved his life. More than just saving his life, it should have given him a good quality of life for many years.

burgerbrain 15y ago

The general public cannot be expected to make a responsible decision concerning alternative 'medicine' if they are not aware of the facts and situation. If this article is to be believed, it's rather clear that Steve Jobs wasn't content to 'die in dignity' (how is it dignified to reject medicine? baffling...), and turned to science based medicine towards the end. Had he been more aware, he could perhaps be alive today. The best legacy Steve Jobs could possibly have is to raise awareness of woo and it's woo-isms, so that perhaps just a few more people don't die unnecessarily.

secretasiandan 15y ago
I wholeheartedly agree, but want to point out that for him to do so is to cast doubt on the cult of personality and product that he created.

wisty 15y ago

Once a cancer is metastatic, I guess it's just a question of quality-of-life vs extending-the-time-you-have. Last-ditch chemo is pointless if you have to go anyway. But people who get an operation immediately, then get chemo survive much better than the ones who wait for the tumor to get big and / or metastatic. You don't want to do what many people do - prevaricate till it's too late, then try the heroic (but sometimes counter-productive) last-ditch measures. Let's just say: if this causes a few of us to see a doctor earlier, and thus saves a few lives (well, improve the quality and quantity of the days we have left), wouldn't that make it worthwhile?

Florin_Andrei 15y ago
> Once a cancer is metastatic, I guess it's just a question of quality-of-life vs extending-the-time-you-have. Not anymore (and not always, anyway). There are some forms of cancer that can currently be kept in check indefinitely, with next-gen chemo.

mechnik 15y ago

Great reply. I thought the OP toxic enough to make one ill.

burgerbrain 15y ago
The thought of bullshit fake medicine taking another life should be enough to make anyone feel ill.
- mechnik 15y ago
  Speak for yourself.
  - burgerbrain 15y ago
    I am. "Should be enough" is very clearly an opinion. My opinion is that it should be enough to make anyone fill ill, because everyone should approach the matter rationally. The fact is that alternative 'medicine' is not rational.
    - mechnik 15y ago
      You are welcome to your opinion.
    - hugh3 15y ago
      "By definition, alternative medicine has either not been proved to work or has been proved not to work. You know what they call alternative medicine that has been proved to work? Medicine." - Tim Minchin
      - burgerbrain 15y ago
        Absolutely brilliant :) For those not familiar with Tim Minchin's work: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U
      - pella 15y ago

achompas 15y ago

I have to disagree here. The author might be insensitive for raising this point so soon, but that doesn't diminish the point's validity. There's a difference between "Steve Jobs survived with cancer for 5 years" and "Steve Jobs barely reached half the median survival rate for his type of cancer." No one has reported on this point.

zeteo 15y ago

> the statistics show that people who skip the N+1th round of chemo and switch to hospice care have better outcomes. Have you even read the article? This was not a case of choice between living two months with chemo or one month without. The cancer was detected early enough and the treatment prospects were excellent. But, no doubt influenced by irresponsible propaganda about the "cold, alienated approach of aggressive medical treatment", Jobs decided to wait a few crucial months while trying alternative medicine (and had the surgery anyways, except with less favorable prospects, due to the delay).

CWuestefeld 15y ago

Actually, the damage is deeper than the [direct] loss caused by Jobs' (what I consider poor) judgment. Remember that when his Plan A didn't work, he needed to fall back to a liver transplant. Transplantable livers don't grow on trees; it's likely that by using this liver, someone else didn't get it. It's quite conceivable, then, that Jobs' decision cost not only his own life, but another person's as well. UPDATE: clarify first sentence by adding "direct".

hyperbovine 15y ago
What if the next person on the list was also using alternative therapy to treat cancer?