3 ms·

This is a good reminder to step out of the US propaganda bubble. I make an effort to try get at least some of my news from outside of the West. I've seen a few

This is a good reminder to step out of the US propaganda bubble. I make an effort to try get at least some of my news from outside of the West. I've seen a few Chinese news programs where they've made it abundantly clear, the power of American sanctions are waning, and China is not going to be pressured into doing what America wants. Our plans to cut China off from much of our advanced technology has only encouraged them to develop their own. You have chinese-made planes flying, phones which only use Chinese designed chips. As far as I can tell, China absolutely doesn't care what any other country does as long as it doesn't directly affect them. It wouldn't surprise me to see Putin speaking Chinese at a news conference, it looks like he's betting on them being the new dominant global power.

cmurf 5y ago
>absolutely doesn't care what any other country does as long as it doesn't directly affect them Taken literally, it means they are only an impediment to the U.N. Security Council's obligation to uphold the Charter. China remains only to have the veto, not because they actually care about their obligations to charter. The U.N. Charter is thus far the best thing humanity has invented to prevent another world war. If it's unwound, we're surely doomed to have another world war.
- 999900000999 5y ago
  What ? Did you forget when the US ignored the UN and invaded Iraq anyway ?
  - cmurf 5y ago
    Comparing either Ukraine to Iraq or U.S. to Russia is specious. US, UK and 29 other nations invaded Iraq. It wasn't unilateral. Russia's invasion is. Invading Iraq wasn't about territorial expansion or subjugation. Russia's invasion is. There were dozen UN resolutions against Iraq, including Res 1441 promising "very severe consequences" for continued non-compliance. I personally don't consider the invasion consistent with Article 51, but the argument can be made. It definitely cannot be made about Ukraine. Russia never once brought a complaint about Ukraine before the UN. Russia has made clear in peace talks they intend border expansion by insisting on recognition of Crimea, Donbas, Luhansk as Russia. It's a breach of the Budapest treaty Russia is a party to. And the Charter. The invasion of Iraq never stood a chance of starting WW3. This does.
    - ailef 5y ago
      > US, UK and 29 other nations invaded Iraq. It wasn't unilateral. Russia's invasion is. Just because all the bullies invaded, instead of just one, doesn't make it more ok.
      - cmurf 5y ago
        No. But the 2003 war was not an aggressive war. That has specific meaning. And aggressive wars are worse. The 2003 invasion didn't happen in a vacuum. Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1990. That too was an aggressive war to expand its borders. Hence all the UN resolutions that followed. Including the ones those 31 countries use as legal justification for the 2003 invasion. You aren't required to agree with that justification. I don't myself. But comparing the invasion of Iraq to the invasions of Georgia in 2009, Ukraine in 2014 and Ukraine in 2022 - isn't useful. They aren't the same thing.

cmurf 5y ago

>absolutely doesn't care what any other country does as long as it doesn't directly affect them Taken literally, it means they are only an impediment to the U.N. Security Council's obligation to uphold the Charter. China remains only to have the veto, not because they actually care about their obligations to charter. The U.N. Charter is thus far the best thing humanity has invented to prevent another world war. If it's unwound, we're surely doomed to have another world war.

999900000999 5y ago
What ? Did you forget when the US ignored the UN and invaded Iraq anyway ?
- cmurf 5y ago
  Comparing either Ukraine to Iraq or U.S. to Russia is specious. US, UK and 29 other nations invaded Iraq. It wasn't unilateral. Russia's invasion is. Invading Iraq wasn't about territorial expansion or subjugation. Russia's invasion is. There were dozen UN resolutions against Iraq, including Res 1441 promising "very severe consequences" for continued non-compliance. I personally don't consider the invasion consistent with Article 51, but the argument can be made. It definitely cannot be made about Ukraine. Russia never once brought a complaint about Ukraine before the UN. Russia has made clear in peace talks they intend border expansion by insisting on recognition of Crimea, Donbas, Luhansk as Russia. It's a breach of the Budapest treaty Russia is a party to. And the Charter. The invasion of Iraq never stood a chance of starting WW3. This does.
  - ailef 5y ago
    > US, UK and 29 other nations invaded Iraq. It wasn't unilateral. Russia's invasion is. Just because all the bullies invaded, instead of just one, doesn't make it more ok.
    - cmurf 5y ago
      No. But the 2003 war was not an aggressive war. That has specific meaning. And aggressive wars are worse. The 2003 invasion didn't happen in a vacuum. Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1990. That too was an aggressive war to expand its borders. Hence all the UN resolutions that followed. Including the ones those 31 countries use as legal justification for the 2003 invasion. You aren't required to agree with that justification. I don't myself. But comparing the invasion of Iraq to the invasions of Georgia in 2009, Ukraine in 2014 and Ukraine in 2022 - isn't useful. They aren't the same thing.