3 ms·

Makes me think, that, indeed, the extra friction of paper mail, holds some scammers at bay. When you have to pay the postage and printing costs, it is far less

by berkes 5y ago

Makes me think, that, indeed, the extra friction of paper mail, holds some scammers at bay. When you have to pay the postage and printing costs, it is far less attractive to throw out 10.000 scam mailings, because the ROI is quite likely negative. Edit: whereas with email, you proably need just one of the 10.000 to bite in order to break-even. Whereas the phone company (or any legit business) can easily carry those extra €0.40 or so for each bill. They can even simply forward the costs to the customer. Mailing invoices by snail-mail is a practical anti-scam measure, the more I think about it.

kube-system 5y ago
Also it’s hard to send letters internationally while making them look domestic.
rosndo 5y ago
This is a bizarre idea. Scammers printing scam letters can just as easily print fake postmarks. > When you have to pay the postage and printing costs, it is far less attractive to throw out 10.000 scam mailings, because the ROI is quite likely negative Try to do think about the math here. What kind of scam mail are you sending to reach such bad ROI? Let’s imagine these are fake utility bills for around 50 euros and total cost to the scammer is 1 euro per letter. Your success rate would have to be incredibly bad for the ROI to be negative. Now, target tenants of rental properties instead and tell them they need to pay their rent to a new account. Profits go up 10-100x, costs stay the same.
- lb1lf 5y ago
  > This is a bizarre idea. > Scammers printing scam letters can just as easily print fake postmarks. -While that is true, it is impractical on at least a couple of levels: a) You need to get that fake mail into the postal system, somehow - and do so in a way which escapes attention. b) (The worrying bit, if you're a scammer) - You've just gone from attempted fraud (sending out scam emails) to defrauding the postal service of whatever country you try to pull this one off in; the authorities are quite likely to take a dim view of your efforts.
  - rosndo 5y ago
    > a) You need to get that fake mail into the postal system, somehow - and do so in a way which escapes attention You pay some guy to drive around and stuff your envelopes into various post boxes 500-1000 at a time. Or just find an insider at the postal service of your choice, crime forums are full of people offering this. If you’re capable of accepting payments for fake bills, you already have people walking into banks with fake IDs to open accounts. Sending out letters is significantly less complex. > b) (The worrying bit, if you're a scammer) - You've just gone from attempted fraud (sending out scam emails) to defrauding the postal service of whatever country you try to pull this one off in; the authorities are quite likely to take a dim view of your efforts. Probably not, considering the amount of crimes involved in accepting money transfers to a drop account created with fake documents and the subsequent money laundering. Defrauding the postal service is small potatoes.
nix0n 5y ago
You're probably right, but I think a bigger factor is that if someone pays by mail, a scammer will find it difficult to cash a check that's made out to the utility company.
- berkes 5y ago
  I believe the only country in the world to still use cheques are the US. In Europe, at least, we get an invoice with payment details printed on it or an occasional giro form. Both are probably easier to scam than cheques. In my country this is a real thing: fake invoices (in the sense that they are real invoices, but for fake services) mailed to companies hoping a few companies automatically pay them. They are called Spookfacturen (ghost invoices). And if ever we switch to full digital invoicing, this'll grow much bigger. Because now the costs of these scams are big.

by berkes 5y ago

kube-system 5y ago

Also it’s hard to send letters internationally while making them look domestic.

rosndo 5y ago

This is a bizarre idea. Scammers printing scam letters can just as easily print fake postmarks. > When you have to pay the postage and printing costs, it is far less attractive to throw out 10.000 scam mailings, because the ROI is quite likely negative Try to do think about the math here. What kind of scam mail are you sending to reach such bad ROI? Let’s imagine these are fake utility bills for around 50 euros and total cost to the scammer is 1 euro per letter. Your success rate would have to be incredibly bad for the ROI to be negative. Now, target tenants of rental properties instead and tell them they need to pay their rent to a new account. Profits go up 10-100x, costs stay the same.

lb1lf 5y ago
> This is a bizarre idea. > Scammers printing scam letters can just as easily print fake postmarks. -While that is true, it is impractical on at least a couple of levels: a) You need to get that fake mail into the postal system, somehow - and do so in a way which escapes attention. b) (The worrying bit, if you're a scammer) - You've just gone from attempted fraud (sending out scam emails) to defrauding the postal service of whatever country you try to pull this one off in; the authorities are quite likely to take a dim view of your efforts.
- rosndo 5y ago
  > a) You need to get that fake mail into the postal system, somehow - and do so in a way which escapes attention You pay some guy to drive around and stuff your envelopes into various post boxes 500-1000 at a time. Or just find an insider at the postal service of your choice, crime forums are full of people offering this. If you’re capable of accepting payments for fake bills, you already have people walking into banks with fake IDs to open accounts. Sending out letters is significantly less complex. > b) (The worrying bit, if you're a scammer) - You've just gone from attempted fraud (sending out scam emails) to defrauding the postal service of whatever country you try to pull this one off in; the authorities are quite likely to take a dim view of your efforts. Probably not, considering the amount of crimes involved in accepting money transfers to a drop account created with fake documents and the subsequent money laundering. Defrauding the postal service is small potatoes.

nix0n 5y ago

You're probably right, but I think a bigger factor is that if someone pays by mail, a scammer will find it difficult to cash a check that's made out to the utility company.

berkes 5y ago
I believe the only country in the world to still use cheques are the US. In Europe, at least, we get an invoice with payment details printed on it or an occasional giro form. Both are probably easier to scam than cheques. In my country this is a real thing: fake invoices (in the sense that they are real invoices, but for fake services) mailed to companies hoping a few companies automatically pay them. They are called Spookfacturen (ghost invoices). And if ever we switch to full digital invoicing, this'll grow much bigger. Because now the costs of these scams are big.