5 ms·

Fisher is the best. See also his classic essay on the toxicity of (what passes for) left-wing social media culture, “Exiting the Vampire Castle.” I host a mirro

Fisher is the best. See also his classic essay on the toxicity of (what passes for) left-wing social media culture, “Exiting the Vampire Castle.” I host a mirror: https://www.theobeers.com/favorites/vampire-castle/ https://www.theobeers.com/favorites/vampire-castle/ I’m increasingly amazed at Fisher’s perceptiveness—he published this in 2013. He was always ahead of the curve.

zozbot234 5y ago
I'm sorry, but 2013 is not 'ahead of the curve' - the problems with what was later called "woke" ideology were obvious to those who were paying attention, already in the late 2000s when that ideological memeplex first spread online via the likes of Tumblr. Still, better late than never I guess.
- tablespoon 5y ago
  > I'm sorry, but 2013 is not 'ahead of the curve' - the problems with what was later called "woke" ideology were obvious to those who were paying attention, already in the late 2000s when that ideological memeplex first spread online via the likes of Tumblr. Still, better late than never I guess. Talking about it when it was still "very online" is being ahead of the curve. You don't have to be one of the first to be ahead.
- theobeers 5y ago
  The seriousness of the problem didn't hit me until more like 2014–15. I've had a lot of conversations about this with like-minded friends, wondering what went wrong, and when it got really bad. One of the factors that I've come to focus on, in retrospect, is smartphone penetration—which crossed 50% in the US in 2012.[0] The wide currency of social media apps did a lot to allow the metastasis of the "libidinal-discursive configurations" that Fisher identifies. Tumblr culture was an earlier harbinger, but I don't see how we can compare it to what subsequently developed on progressive-left Twitter. [0]: https://techcrunch.com/2012/05/07/nielsen-smartphones-used-by-50-4-of-u-s-consumers-android-48-5-of-them/ https://techcrunch.com/2012/05/07/nielsen-smartphones-used-b...
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    > Tumblr culture was an earlier harbinger, but I don't see how we can compare it to what subsequently developed on progressive-left Twitter. We can compare it because it's the same memeplex, just on a different medium. Just as we can compare Qanon nuts writing on 4chan vs. Facebook.
  - psyc 5y ago
    Fancying myself somewhat of an archivist of such matters, I believe the timeline of the Culture War must include 'mansplaining' (LiveJournal, 2008), Dickwolves (Penny Arcade, 2010), and Gamergate (originally WordPress, 2014). Each of these events brought feminist writers / bloggers into explosive contact with the meme-engines of the web, giving terms and concepts such as 'mansplaining', 'rape culture', and 'toxic masculinity' wide and rapid dissemination.
    - FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
      Your examples are excellent. To a "normal person", some of them seem so unimportant. And yet. I would be fascinated by a real history of this stuff. It'd be almost impossible to find someone who could do it honestly, though. Having lived through it, I remember op-ed pieces, which I can no longer find, that I clearly remember as events that shaped the way people around me thought and talked. For just one example, I clearly remember reading an op-ed calling for the word "gross" to be used against those who stood in the way of feminist aims. The idea was that physical disgust was a "conservative" emotion thay could be repurposed -- and that women's role as arbiters of sexual attractiveness could be useful here. Now today I still occasionally hear the word "gross" used in this way. It's almost a shibboleth. If only I could find that op-ed! Here's another empirical example (US chosen as it leads Europe in these things): https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=gaslighting https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=g... We can see the exponential plain as day. What I want to know is: What was the spark, the seed, the detonator? The problem is, it's fundamentally, mathematically, difficult to run diffusion backwards, let alone an explosion, let alone viral reproduction. "Was it the lab or the wet market?" Lyapunov exponents get in the way of telling. And self-interest. And actual -- yes, though I hate the word -- gaslighting by the actors themselves. But the history hasn't quite been erased yet. I think a dedicated person could piece a lot of it back together.
ant_li0n 5y ago
I remember reading that, back in the day. I wonder what Fisher would think of Russell Brand these days. That dude has really gone off the deep end, it's sad. Also in all these critiques of wokeness, the conversation always seems to involve Twitter. Maybe Twitter, the realm of hot-takes and snappy one-liners, just isn't a place where people should spend their time?
- psyc 5y ago
  There was Tumblr before it (and LiveJournal before that), and TikTok after it. Twitter, however, seems to be better suited in its fundamental design for war ala call-outs and brigading.
- theobeers 5y ago
  The struggle to maintain a grounded perspective, through the Trump era, through the pandemic, has been too much for most people. I still think Brand's heart is in the right place… probably. Fisher stayed true to the end, but I have to wonder if that's only because he took his life in January 2017. It's hard to think of social/political commentators who haven't succumbed, to some extent, to the brain-melting effects of the last several years. (Maybe Žižek? He's no more or less heterodox today than he was a decade ago.)

zozbot234 5y ago

I'm sorry, but 2013 is not 'ahead of the curve' - the problems with what was later called "woke" ideology were obvious to those who were paying attention, already in the late 2000s when that ideological memeplex first spread online via the likes of Tumblr. Still, better late than never I guess.

tablespoon 5y ago
> I'm sorry, but 2013 is not 'ahead of the curve' - the problems with what was later called "woke" ideology were obvious to those who were paying attention, already in the late 2000s when that ideological memeplex first spread online via the likes of Tumblr. Still, better late than never I guess. Talking about it when it was still "very online" is being ahead of the curve. You don't have to be one of the first to be ahead.
theobeers 5y ago
The seriousness of the problem didn't hit me until more like 2014–15. I've had a lot of conversations about this with like-minded friends, wondering what went wrong, and when it got really bad. One of the factors that I've come to focus on, in retrospect, is smartphone penetration—which crossed 50% in the US in 2012.[0] The wide currency of social media apps did a lot to allow the metastasis of the "libidinal-discursive configurations" that Fisher identifies. Tumblr culture was an earlier harbinger, but I don't see how we can compare it to what subsequently developed on progressive-left Twitter. [0]: https://techcrunch.com/2012/05/07/nielsen-smartphones-used-by-50-4-of-u-s-consumers-android-48-5-of-them/ https://techcrunch.com/2012/05/07/nielsen-smartphones-used-b...
- zozbot234 5y ago
  > Tumblr culture was an earlier harbinger, but I don't see how we can compare it to what subsequently developed on progressive-left Twitter. We can compare it because it's the same memeplex, just on a different medium. Just as we can compare Qanon nuts writing on 4chan vs. Facebook.
- psyc 5y ago
  Fancying myself somewhat of an archivist of such matters, I believe the timeline of the Culture War must include 'mansplaining' (LiveJournal, 2008), Dickwolves (Penny Arcade, 2010), and Gamergate (originally WordPress, 2014). Each of these events brought feminist writers / bloggers into explosive contact with the meme-engines of the web, giving terms and concepts such as 'mansplaining', 'rape culture', and 'toxic masculinity' wide and rapid dissemination.
  - FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
    Your examples are excellent. To a "normal person", some of them seem so unimportant. And yet. I would be fascinated by a real history of this stuff. It'd be almost impossible to find someone who could do it honestly, though. Having lived through it, I remember op-ed pieces, which I can no longer find, that I clearly remember as events that shaped the way people around me thought and talked. For just one example, I clearly remember reading an op-ed calling for the word "gross" to be used against those who stood in the way of feminist aims. The idea was that physical disgust was a "conservative" emotion thay could be repurposed -- and that women's role as arbiters of sexual attractiveness could be useful here. Now today I still occasionally hear the word "gross" used in this way. It's almost a shibboleth. If only I could find that op-ed! Here's another empirical example (US chosen as it leads Europe in these things): https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=gaslighting https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=g... We can see the exponential plain as day. What I want to know is: What was the spark, the seed, the detonator? The problem is, it's fundamentally, mathematically, difficult to run diffusion backwards, let alone an explosion, let alone viral reproduction. "Was it the lab or the wet market?" Lyapunov exponents get in the way of telling. And self-interest. And actual -- yes, though I hate the word -- gaslighting by the actors themselves. But the history hasn't quite been erased yet. I think a dedicated person could piece a lot of it back together.

ant_li0n 5y ago

I remember reading that, back in the day. I wonder what Fisher would think of Russell Brand these days. That dude has really gone off the deep end, it's sad. Also in all these critiques of wokeness, the conversation always seems to involve Twitter. Maybe Twitter, the realm of hot-takes and snappy one-liners, just isn't a place where people should spend their time?

psyc 5y ago
There was Tumblr before it (and LiveJournal before that), and TikTok after it. Twitter, however, seems to be better suited in its fundamental design for war ala call-outs and brigading.
theobeers 5y ago
The struggle to maintain a grounded perspective, through the Trump era, through the pandemic, has been too much for most people. I still think Brand's heart is in the right place… probably. Fisher stayed true to the end, but I have to wonder if that's only because he took his life in January 2017. It's hard to think of social/political commentators who haven't succumbed, to some extent, to the brain-melting effects of the last several years. (Maybe Žižek? He's no more or less heterodox today than he was a decade ago.)