8 ms·

Steve Jobs Succumbs to Alternative Medicine

239 points by exit 15y ago

exit 15y ago
A more in depth discussion: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/10/05/steve-jobs-dies-his-unorthodox-treatment-for-neuroendocrine-cancer.html# http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/10/05/steve-jobs-...
jcarden 15y ago
All I can say is that I hope we did not lose a visionary due to a reliance on alternative medicine.
- pyre 15y ago
  ... because conventional medicine has cured pancreatic cancer.
  - tmhedberg 15y ago
    It very likely would have cured his particular form of it.
    - objclxt 15y ago
      ...he had a liver transplant. I hardly think you can say he 'avoided' conventional medicine...
      - tmhedberg 15y ago
        No, he didn't avoid it, but according to the article, he also didn't avail himself of it until it was clear to him that his "alternative therapy" was not having an appreciable effect. The delay in effective treatment incurred by this poor judgment could easily have cost him his life, or at least prevented him from enjoying several more years of relative comfort.
      - KirinDave 15y ago
        The article suggests he avoided doing it until it was obvious his body was failing; this removing any advantage that early detection brought him.
- TheCapn 15y ago
  Don't look at things in a negative way. Should this be true I'd prefer to believe that it was because of his alternative vision on life that he was capable of producing such innovative product lines. No "alternative" way of thinking in medicine == no "alternative" way of thinking in life. (Obviously just one point of view to consider)
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
- weaksauce 15y ago
  Out of curiosity, which down vote are you speaking of? You can't down vote stories. Flag, yes, but not stories. I love apple and I admire Jobs' charisma. I think that if true this type of story needs to be told. As it reads right now it does not have much real hard evidence though and I would like some more meat to something controversial.
- vibragiel 15y ago
  As Brian Dunning puts it: «No, it's not too early to criticize the misinformation that cut short Steve Jobs' life. It's the best time.» https://mobile.twitter.com/briandunning/status/121785443535683585 https://mobile.twitter.com/briandunning/status/1217854435356... I pretty much agree with that.
thwest 15y ago
The reports of Jobs' treatment elections are conjecture. "although neither Apple nor those close to Jobs were willing to discuss the treatments he elected or the course of his disease," the community continues to assume that rumors about Job's health coming out of financial publications (Forbes) are somehow accurate. This post is trite and condescending no matter how long it came after Jobs’ death. Dealing with death is a personal matter. You have no right to demand that anyone submit themselves to the cold, alienated approach of aggressive medical treatment. Let people pass with dignity, however they choose. The purpose of life is not to be a mobile mass of cells for as long as technologically possible. In fact, the statistics show that people who skip the N+1th round of chemo and switch to hospice care have better outcomes. http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/02/100802fa_fact_gawande http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/02/100802fa_fact_...
- recoiledsnake 15y ago
  >This post is trite and condescending no matter how long it came after Jobs’ death. Dealing with death is a personal matter. You have no right to demand that anyone submit themselves to the cold, alienated approach of aggressive medical treatment. Let people pass with dignity, however they choose. Don't know why you're taking it this way but (assuming that it's true, need more facts from reliable sources) this is more of a warning to people not to get taken in by alternative medicine alone and to be a little skeptical of it as a cure-all.
- bryanlarsen 15y ago
  We're not talking about the N+1th round of chemo here. According the article, it was the 1st round of treatment he skipped, the one that probably would have saved his life. More than just saving his life, it should have given him a good quality of life for many years.
- burgerbrain 15y ago
  The general public cannot be expected to make a responsible decision concerning alternative 'medicine' if they are not aware of the facts and situation. If this article is to be believed, it's rather clear that Steve Jobs wasn't content to 'die in dignity' (how is it dignified to reject medicine? baffling...), and turned to science based medicine towards the end. Had he been more aware, he could perhaps be alive today. The best legacy Steve Jobs could possibly have is to raise awareness of woo and it's woo-isms, so that perhaps just a few more people don't die unnecessarily.
aculver 15y ago
First, Steve's family asked us to respect their privacy. They never made his fight with cancer a public matter and it's terribly rude to speculate like this. That aside, I did have some thoughts on the alternative treatments this article is talking about. With close family members having fought cancer more times than I can count on one hand, my honest impression is that for several forms of cancer the current state of "orthodox" treatment (typically chemotherapy and radiation) is a joke worth skipping in exchange for what quality of life you have left.. which in one case has turned out to be 15 years and counting (following two surgeries.) What makes a lot of alternative methods appealing to me is not their anecdotal evidence. It's that many of them (at least the ones I'm familiar with) don't have such torturous and long lasting side effects. For folks like my wife and I who have already come to the conclusion that we would not pursue chemotherapy and radiation treatments for many forms of cancer, we've got nothing to lose. We've already decided we'd rather die what we consider gracefully than suffer the side effects and slow, agonizing death of a long drawn out battle. Not trying to convince anyone here, just trying to explain this from the other side.
- Estragon 15y ago
  It depends on the type of cancer. For some classes of cancer, there are now treatments which dramatically improve the prognosis, with relatively mild side-effects. This is summarized well in the book The Emperor of Maladies. Pancreatic cancer is particularly intractable. The survival rate is extremely low. I don't blame him for trying everything. He had nothing to lose.
  - exit 15y ago
    i can agree that once the question becomes how you will die of cancer instead of whether, then gentler (perhaps "alternative") treatment may be acceptable. the issue here though is that some people reject conventional treatment from the very beginning.
  - noarchy 15y ago
    He had nothing to lose, perhaps, but maybe he did have something to lose if he was foregoing conventional treatments in favour of something that was of dubious efficacy. "If" is the key word, as I have no idea what was going on with regard to his very private (as was his right to be) medical treatments.
Alex3917 15y ago
Once again, more intellectually dishonest 'arguments' from the self-labeled skeptics. How about actually discussing what Steve Jobs did, why he thought it might be effective, and his logic about the pros and cons. You know, actually doing some work instead of just trying to rack up some cheap page views off of the man's death while contributing nothing of value.
- burgerbrain 15y ago
  If awareness of alternative 'medicine' gained from this incident cause a single person to go to a real doctor and have their life saved, it will be Steve Jobs' greatest legacy. Stop thinking about gadgets for one minute and consider human life.
  - greyish_water 15y ago
    Alex3917 did not say anything about gadgets.
    - burgerbrain 15y ago
      It was not my intention to imply that he had.
      - greyish_water 15y ago
        What was the point of bringing it up, then?
        burgerbrain 15y ago
        I was anticipating protest, and addressing it before the fact.
        greyish_water 15y ago
        I don't understand what kind of protest you were anticipating. Calling for deeper discussion of the motives or thought process behind a mistaken action is in no way an endorsement of gadgets over human life. It sounds more like you were trying to twist this into something about Apple.
Tyrannosaurs 15y ago
And taking a contrary position, here's the editor of Natural News saying that Chemotherapy and Radiotherapy killed him: http://www.naturalnews.com/033793_Steve_Jobs_chemotherapy.html http://www.naturalnews.com/033793_Steve_Jobs_chemotherapy.ht... (For clarification, I think the article is bullshit, I just put it out there as part of the discussion about Steve's medical treatment and about people jumping on his death to further some view or other).
vectorpush 15y ago
I wasn't aware that Steve favored alternative medicine, sad to hear that, but I wouldn't judge him for it. The reality is, despite its proven efficacy, western medicine's answer to cancer is still painful/debilitating and sometimes borders on humiliating, especially for someone with such a ubiquitous public image. For many, alternative medicine finds its appeal as an escape from the grim and down right scary inevitability of chemo and surgery, it's a way to feel like you're doing something without having to sacrifice your hair, lunch, and dignity. It's a self delusion that I can't blame anyone for indulging in.
- burgerbrain 15y ago
  The proper term for 'western medicine' is 'evidence based medicine'. The term 'western medicine' can incorrectly imply an equal footing for so called 'eastern medicine'. (I did not downvote you)
  - vectorpush 15y ago
    You're absolutely correct, good point.
  - pella 15y ago
    not true .. 'western medicine' is NOT 'evidence based medicine' "What percentage of the around 3000 treatments included in Clinical Evidence fall into each category: - 11% Beneficial - 23% Likely to be beneficial - 7% Trade off between benefits and harm - 51% Unknown effectiveness - 5% Unlikely to be beneficial - 3% Likely to be ineffective or harmful" http://clinicalevidence.bmj.com/ceweb/about/knowledge.jsp http://clinicalevidence.bmj.com/ceweb/about/knowledge.jsp ============= and "Evidence-Based Complementary and Alternative Medicine (eCAM) is an international, peer-reviewed journal that seeks to understand the sources and to encourage rigorous research in this new, yet ancient world of complementary and alternative medicine." http://www.hindawi.com/journals/ecam/ http://www.hindawi.com/journals/ecam/ Evidence-Based Complementary and Alternative Medicine (ECAM) and Pancreatic Cancer: http://www.hindawi.com/search.aspx?startindex=1&field0=9&q0=Pancreatic%20Cancer http://www.hindawi.com/search.aspx?startindex=1&field0=9...
brown9-2 15y ago
I don't understand. This post claims that the median survival period for this form of cancer is 10 years. So therefore, his survival (7-8 years), whether or not alternative medicine was used, lasted close to the average one could expect. So what is unexpected here?
- wvl 15y ago
  Did you not read the next 1.5 sentences? > but it depends on how soon it’s removed surgically. Steve caught his very early, and should have expected to survive much longer than a decade.
- bryanlarsen 15y ago
  Given how young Steve Jobs was when he was initially diagnosed in 2003, how good his health was, his ability to pay for the best treatment, his large support network and his insatiable drive, I would have expected better than median survival.
  - eru 15y ago
    Yes, though there's still a lot of chance involved. Young age does not necessarily help with fighting cancer. Younger people have a faster metabolism, and that often allows the tumour to grow faster than in older people.
- asr 15y ago
  The author argues that Steve's expected survival time was actually much higher than the median, because his cancer was detected early--and that the delay in pursuing traditional treatment (surgery) may have been responsible for the poor outcome. Basically, the article would have been clearer if the author had just left out the median in the first place, as he doesn't think it's relevant.
bitsweet 15y ago
It would be one thing if we were talking about rubbing crystals all over your body. I would not consider a modified diet "alternative" medicine. There is legitimate science around diets and how it affects cancer growth (see TED video): http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/william_li.html http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/william_li.html
- bryanlarsen 15y ago
  There's a few big steps from a good theory with solid science to a good theory that's been proved via large scale studies to a possible cure to a cure that shows promise in small targeted studies to a cure that's been validated via large scale studies. The vast majority of possible cures get discarded at each of those steps.
- asr 15y ago
  But going to a naturopathic doctor for a diet prescription is rubbing crystals all over your body. William Li (the speaker in that talk) is an MD bringing evidence-based medicine (i.e. science) to bear on the question. On the other hand, as naturopathic doctors themselves explain, "tradition-sensitive naturopathic practitioners ... which have tradition-based paradigms articulating vitalistic and holistic principles, may have significant problems in relating to the idea of EBM as developed in biomedical contexts." http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/acm.2006.12.323 http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/acm.2006.12.323
thornad 15y ago
Confirmed Steve Jobs did Chemo and Rad. Now think. http://www.marksmarketanalysis.com/2011/02/steve-jobs-on-chemo-may-have-only-weeks.html http://www.marksmarketanalysis.com/2011/02/steve-jobs-on-che... http://gawker.com/5737092/steve-jobss-cancer-secret-revealed-following-sources-death http://gawker.com/5737092/steve-jobss-cancer-secret-revealed...
nhangen 15y ago
Way too early for this, and quite frankly, it's none of your business.
lsparrish 15y ago
I suspect in a few more decades it will be revealed that the true cause of death was failure to cryopreserve. Pretty much all our current medicine can do is buy a few decades at the most. With his wealth, Jobs could have hired his own team of superbly qualified surgeons and perfusionists, and started an apple-themed cryonics vault that would (supported by his fame) last hundreds of years. He would have inspired thousands, perhaps millions of Apple fans to come along for the ride. What a wasted opportunity.
- VMG 15y ago
  Harsh words, but valid point. The first cryoperservations could be billionaires in the hight-tech industry.
da5e 15y ago
Normally a cold lasts 7 days, but with aggressive medical treatment it only lasts a week.
kstenerud 15y ago
So how exactly does this article square up with Steve's 2005 Stanford Commencement address? http://www.roj.com.np/life-inspiration/steve-jobs-how-to-live-before-you-die/ http://www.roj.com.np/life-inspiration/steve-jobs-how-to-liv... "About a year ago I was diagnosed with cancer. I had a scan at 7:30 in the morning, and it clearly showed a tumor on my pancreas. I didn’t even know what a pancreas was. The doctors told me this was almost certainly a type of cancer that is incurable, and that I should expect to live no longer than three to six months. My doctor advised me to go home and get my affairs in order, which is doctor’s code for prepare to die. It means to try to tell your kids everything you thought you’d have the next 10 years to tell them in just a few months. It means to make sure everything is buttoned up so that it will be as easy as possible for your family. It means to say your goodbyes." "I lived with that diagnosis all day. Later that evening I had a biopsy, where they stuck an endoscope down my throat, through my stomach and into my intestines, put a needle into my pancreas and got a few cells from the tumor. I was sedated, but my wife, who was there, told me that when they viewed the cells under a microscope the doctors started crying because it turned out to be a very rare form of pancreatic cancer that is curable with surgery. I had the surgery and I’m fine now." He had the surgery. Successfully, as far as the doctors were concerned. And he lived the median number of years for those diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. This information was not hard to dig up. Stay classy, exit.
- hugh3 15y ago
  * And he lived the median number of years for those diagnosed with pancreatic cancer * The median number of years for those diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, or the median number of years for those diagnosed with this particular type of rare, operable pancreatic cancer?
  - kstenerud 15y ago
    The median number of years for those diagnosed with islet cell carcinoma. For the regular kind it's 3-6 months.
- bryanlarsen 15y ago
  According to The Daily Beast: The cancer was detected during an abdominal scan in October 2003, as Fortune magazine reported in a 2008 cover story. October 2003 + ~9 months of alternative medicine + the ~12 months in his lecture brings you to June 2005, the commencement address.
monkeypizza 15y ago
Here is part of the abstract from "Use of CAM results in delay in seeking medical advice for breast cancer" (1) "On average, [Women who discovered a lump] took 8.7 weeks to inform the family and 17.2 weeks to first physician visit. Fifty three percent delayed seeking medical advice. Common reasons were; antecedent use of complimentary/alternative therapies (34%), lack of significance attached to the lump (23%), fear of surgery (22%), conflicting personal commitments (7%), fear of cancer (5%), and others (8%). Twenty nine percent practiced CAM before visiting any physician. Common methods used were homeopathy (70%), spiritual therapy (15%) and Ayurvedic medicine (13%). CAM use was associated with delay in seeking medical advice (OR: 5.6; 95% CI: 2.3, 13.3) and presentation at an advanced stage of disease (OR: 2.2; 95% CI: 1.01, 4.6). Patients who delayed seeking medical advice more often had positive axillary nodes and stage III/IV disease. Breast cancer patients in Pakistan frequently (53%) delay seeking medical advice. Antecedent practice of CAM is widespread and a common underlying reason. The delay results in significant worsening of the disease process." tl;dr - people delay medical treatment, and part of the reason is that they try alternative treatments, and only go to the doctor when the problem gets worse. This worsens the progress of their disease. This is why alternative medicine is bad. Because it kills people. Imagine how mad you would be if someone you loved delayed treatment for a real problem because they were following advice to try alternative, "natural" medicine they'd received from a friend. We are responsible for the outcomes of what we do, not just the sentiment behind it. 1) http://www.springerlink.com/content/k8p0400u2u77242l/ http://www.springerlink.com/content/k8p0400u2u77242l/
- mechnik 15y ago
  Those 29% who "practiced CAM before visiting any physician" would be better served visiting a physician who utilizes CAM as an adjunct to his practice, who would recognize their concerns, and encourage those patients not to delay any required treatments.
  - monkeypizza 15y ago
    Unfortunately, though, few homeopaths would give this type of advice. Most homeopaths actively recommend people not use scientific medicine. The following quotes are from an investigation of what type of advice real homeopaths give when asked to recommend treatment for someone planning to visit areas exposed to malaria. "... I tried to find out what homeopaths would offer to a young traveller seeking protection against malaria. Working with Alice Tuff and the charity Sense About Science, we developed a storyline in which Tuff would be making a ten week overland trip through West Africa, where there is a high prevalence of the most dangerous strain of malaria, which can result in death within three days. Tuff, a young graduate, would explain to homeopaths that she had previously suffered side-effects from conventional malaria tablets and wondered if there was a homeopathic alternative." ... "Next Tuff found a variety of homeopaths by searching on the internet, just as any young student might do. She then visited or phoned ten of them, mainly based in and around London. In each case, Tuff secretly recorded the conversations in order to document the consultation. The results were shocking. Seven out of the ten homeopaths failed to ask about the patient's medical background and also failed to offer any general advice about bite prevention. Worse still, ten out of ten homeopaths were willing to advise homeopathic protection against malaria instead of conventional treatment, which would have put our pretend traveller's life at risk." http://www.1023.org.uk/whats-the-harm-in-homeopathy.php http://www.1023.org.uk/whats-the-harm-in-homeopathy.php
toddmorey 15y ago
Counterpoint: Having been irrevocably harmed by modern medicine, I encourage everyone to always be a skeptic and a self-advocate when undergoing any approved or alternative therapy. Do research. Get multiple opinions. Be a strong, vocal participant in your plan of care.
RyanKearney 15y ago
Nonsense Steve, your diet "just works".
marknutter 15y ago
On the one hand, Steve Job's opinionated and stubborn nature helped craft some of the most successful consumer products in history, but tragically it may be that that same stubbornness and free thinking could very well have led to his early demise.

239 points by exit 15y ago

exit 15y ago

A more in depth discussion: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/10/05/steve-jobs-dies-his-unorthodox-treatment-for-neuroendocrine-cancer.html# http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/10/05/steve-jobs-...

jcarden 15y ago

All I can say is that I hope we did not lose a visionary due to a reliance on alternative medicine.

pyre 15y ago
... because conventional medicine has cured pancreatic cancer.
- tmhedberg 15y ago
  It very likely would have cured his particular form of it.
  - objclxt 15y ago
    ...he had a liver transplant. I hardly think you can say he 'avoided' conventional medicine...
    - tmhedberg 15y ago
      No, he didn't avoid it, but according to the article, he also didn't avail himself of it until it was clear to him that his "alternative therapy" was not having an appreciable effect. The delay in effective treatment incurred by this poor judgment could easily have cost him his life, or at least prevented him from enjoying several more years of relative comfort.
    - KirinDave 15y ago
      The article suggests he avoided doing it until it was obvious his body was failing; this removing any advantage that early detection brought him.
TheCapn 15y ago
Don't look at things in a negative way. Should this be true I'd prefer to believe that it was because of his alternative vision on life that he was capable of producing such innovative product lines. No "alternative" way of thinking in medicine == no "alternative" way of thinking in life. (Obviously just one point of view to consider)

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

weaksauce 15y ago
Out of curiosity, which down vote are you speaking of? You can't down vote stories. Flag, yes, but not stories. I love apple and I admire Jobs' charisma. I think that if true this type of story needs to be told. As it reads right now it does not have much real hard evidence though and I would like some more meat to something controversial.
vibragiel 15y ago
As Brian Dunning puts it: «No, it's not too early to criticize the misinformation that cut short Steve Jobs' life. It's the best time.» https://mobile.twitter.com/briandunning/status/121785443535683585 https://mobile.twitter.com/briandunning/status/1217854435356... I pretty much agree with that.

thwest 15y ago

The reports of Jobs' treatment elections are conjecture. "although neither Apple nor those close to Jobs were willing to discuss the treatments he elected or the course of his disease," the community continues to assume that rumors about Job's health coming out of financial publications (Forbes) are somehow accurate. This post is trite and condescending no matter how long it came after Jobs’ death. Dealing with death is a personal matter. You have no right to demand that anyone submit themselves to the cold, alienated approach of aggressive medical treatment. Let people pass with dignity, however they choose. The purpose of life is not to be a mobile mass of cells for as long as technologically possible. In fact, the statistics show that people who skip the N+1th round of chemo and switch to hospice care have better outcomes. http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/02/100802fa_fact_gawande http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/02/100802fa_fact_...

recoiledsnake 15y ago
>This post is trite and condescending no matter how long it came after Jobs’ death. Dealing with death is a personal matter. You have no right to demand that anyone submit themselves to the cold, alienated approach of aggressive medical treatment. Let people pass with dignity, however they choose. Don't know why you're taking it this way but (assuming that it's true, need more facts from reliable sources) this is more of a warning to people not to get taken in by alternative medicine alone and to be a little skeptical of it as a cure-all.
bryanlarsen 15y ago
We're not talking about the N+1th round of chemo here. According the article, it was the 1st round of treatment he skipped, the one that probably would have saved his life. More than just saving his life, it should have given him a good quality of life for many years.
burgerbrain 15y ago
The general public cannot be expected to make a responsible decision concerning alternative 'medicine' if they are not aware of the facts and situation. If this article is to be believed, it's rather clear that Steve Jobs wasn't content to 'die in dignity' (how is it dignified to reject medicine? baffling...), and turned to science based medicine towards the end. Had he been more aware, he could perhaps be alive today. The best legacy Steve Jobs could possibly have is to raise awareness of woo and it's woo-isms, so that perhaps just a few more people don't die unnecessarily.

aculver 15y ago

First, Steve's family asked us to respect their privacy. They never made his fight with cancer a public matter and it's terribly rude to speculate like this. That aside, I did have some thoughts on the alternative treatments this article is talking about. With close family members having fought cancer more times than I can count on one hand, my honest impression is that for several forms of cancer the current state of "orthodox" treatment (typically chemotherapy and radiation) is a joke worth skipping in exchange for what quality of life you have left.. which in one case has turned out to be 15 years and counting (following two surgeries.) What makes a lot of alternative methods appealing to me is not their anecdotal evidence. It's that many of them (at least the ones I'm familiar with) don't have such torturous and long lasting side effects. For folks like my wife and I who have already come to the conclusion that we would not pursue chemotherapy and radiation treatments for many forms of cancer, we've got nothing to lose. We've already decided we'd rather die what we consider gracefully than suffer the side effects and slow, agonizing death of a long drawn out battle. Not trying to convince anyone here, just trying to explain this from the other side.

Estragon 15y ago
It depends on the type of cancer. For some classes of cancer, there are now treatments which dramatically improve the prognosis, with relatively mild side-effects. This is summarized well in the book The Emperor of Maladies. Pancreatic cancer is particularly intractable. The survival rate is extremely low. I don't blame him for trying everything. He had nothing to lose.
- exit 15y ago
  i can agree that once the question becomes how you will die of cancer instead of whether, then gentler (perhaps "alternative") treatment may be acceptable. the issue here though is that some people reject conventional treatment from the very beginning.
- noarchy 15y ago
  He had nothing to lose, perhaps, but maybe he did have something to lose if he was foregoing conventional treatments in favour of something that was of dubious efficacy. "If" is the key word, as I have no idea what was going on with regard to his very private (as was his right to be) medical treatments.

Alex3917 15y ago

Once again, more intellectually dishonest 'arguments' from the self-labeled skeptics. How about actually discussing what Steve Jobs did, why he thought it might be effective, and his logic about the pros and cons. You know, actually doing some work instead of just trying to rack up some cheap page views off of the man's death while contributing nothing of value.

burgerbrain 15y ago
If awareness of alternative 'medicine' gained from this incident cause a single person to go to a real doctor and have their life saved, it will be Steve Jobs' greatest legacy. Stop thinking about gadgets for one minute and consider human life.
- greyish_water 15y ago
  Alex3917 did not say anything about gadgets.
  - burgerbrain 15y ago
    It was not my intention to imply that he had.
    - greyish_water 15y ago
      What was the point of bringing it up, then?
      - burgerbrain 15y ago
        I was anticipating protest, and addressing it before the fact.
        greyish_water 15y ago
        I don't understand what kind of protest you were anticipating. Calling for deeper discussion of the motives or thought process behind a mistaken action is in no way an endorsement of gadgets over human life. It sounds more like you were trying to twist this into something about Apple.

Tyrannosaurs 15y ago

And taking a contrary position, here's the editor of Natural News saying that Chemotherapy and Radiotherapy killed him: http://www.naturalnews.com/033793_Steve_Jobs_chemotherapy.html http://www.naturalnews.com/033793_Steve_Jobs_chemotherapy.ht... (For clarification, I think the article is bullshit, I just put it out there as part of the discussion about Steve's medical treatment and about people jumping on his death to further some view or other).

vectorpush 15y ago

I wasn't aware that Steve favored alternative medicine, sad to hear that, but I wouldn't judge him for it. The reality is, despite its proven efficacy, western medicine's answer to cancer is still painful/debilitating and sometimes borders on humiliating, especially for someone with such a ubiquitous public image. For many, alternative medicine finds its appeal as an escape from the grim and down right scary inevitability of chemo and surgery, it's a way to feel like you're doing something without having to sacrifice your hair, lunch, and dignity. It's a self delusion that I can't blame anyone for indulging in.

burgerbrain 15y ago
The proper term for 'western medicine' is 'evidence based medicine'. The term 'western medicine' can incorrectly imply an equal footing for so called 'eastern medicine'. (I did not downvote you)
- vectorpush 15y ago
  You're absolutely correct, good point.
- pella 15y ago
  not true .. 'western medicine' is NOT 'evidence based medicine' "What percentage of the around 3000 treatments included in Clinical Evidence fall into each category: - 11% Beneficial - 23% Likely to be beneficial - 7% Trade off between benefits and harm - 51% Unknown effectiveness - 5% Unlikely to be beneficial - 3% Likely to be ineffective or harmful" http://clinicalevidence.bmj.com/ceweb/about/knowledge.jsp http://clinicalevidence.bmj.com/ceweb/about/knowledge.jsp ============= and "Evidence-Based Complementary and Alternative Medicine (eCAM) is an international, peer-reviewed journal that seeks to understand the sources and to encourage rigorous research in this new, yet ancient world of complementary and alternative medicine." http://www.hindawi.com/journals/ecam/ http://www.hindawi.com/journals/ecam/ Evidence-Based Complementary and Alternative Medicine (ECAM) and Pancreatic Cancer: http://www.hindawi.com/search.aspx?startindex=1&field0=9&q0=Pancreatic%20Cancer http://www.hindawi.com/search.aspx?startindex=1&field0=9...

brown9-2 15y ago

I don't understand. This post claims that the median survival period for this form of cancer is 10 years. So therefore, his survival (7-8 years), whether or not alternative medicine was used, lasted close to the average one could expect. So what is unexpected here?

wvl 15y ago
Did you not read the next 1.5 sentences? > but it depends on how soon it’s removed surgically. Steve caught his very early, and should have expected to survive much longer than a decade.
bryanlarsen 15y ago
Given how young Steve Jobs was when he was initially diagnosed in 2003, how good his health was, his ability to pay for the best treatment, his large support network and his insatiable drive, I would have expected better than median survival.
- eru 15y ago
  Yes, though there's still a lot of chance involved. Young age does not necessarily help with fighting cancer. Younger people have a faster metabolism, and that often allows the tumour to grow faster than in older people.
asr 15y ago
The author argues that Steve's expected survival time was actually much higher than the median, because his cancer was detected early--and that the delay in pursuing traditional treatment (surgery) may have been responsible for the poor outcome. Basically, the article would have been clearer if the author had just left out the median in the first place, as he doesn't think it's relevant.

bitsweet 15y ago

It would be one thing if we were talking about rubbing crystals all over your body. I would not consider a modified diet "alternative" medicine. There is legitimate science around diets and how it affects cancer growth (see TED video): http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/william_li.html http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/william_li.html

bryanlarsen 15y ago
There's a few big steps from a good theory with solid science to a good theory that's been proved via large scale studies to a possible cure to a cure that shows promise in small targeted studies to a cure that's been validated via large scale studies. The vast majority of possible cures get discarded at each of those steps.
asr 15y ago
But going to a naturopathic doctor for a diet prescription is rubbing crystals all over your body. William Li (the speaker in that talk) is an MD bringing evidence-based medicine (i.e. science) to bear on the question. On the other hand, as naturopathic doctors themselves explain, "tradition-sensitive naturopathic practitioners ... which have tradition-based paradigms articulating vitalistic and holistic principles, may have significant problems in relating to the idea of EBM as developed in biomedical contexts." http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/acm.2006.12.323 http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/acm.2006.12.323

thornad 15y ago

Confirmed Steve Jobs did Chemo and Rad. Now think. http://www.marksmarketanalysis.com/2011/02/steve-jobs-on-chemo-may-have-only-weeks.html http://www.marksmarketanalysis.com/2011/02/steve-jobs-on-che... http://gawker.com/5737092/steve-jobss-cancer-secret-revealed-following-sources-death http://gawker.com/5737092/steve-jobss-cancer-secret-revealed...

nhangen 15y ago

Way too early for this, and quite frankly, it's none of your business.

lsparrish 15y ago

I suspect in a few more decades it will be revealed that the true cause of death was failure to cryopreserve. Pretty much all our current medicine can do is buy a few decades at the most. With his wealth, Jobs could have hired his own team of superbly qualified surgeons and perfusionists, and started an apple-themed cryonics vault that would (supported by his fame) last hundreds of years. He would have inspired thousands, perhaps millions of Apple fans to come along for the ride. What a wasted opportunity.

VMG 15y ago
Harsh words, but valid point. The first cryoperservations could be billionaires in the hight-tech industry.

da5e 15y ago

Normally a cold lasts 7 days, but with aggressive medical treatment it only lasts a week.

kstenerud 15y ago

So how exactly does this article square up with Steve's 2005 Stanford Commencement address? http://www.roj.com.np/life-inspiration/steve-jobs-how-to-live-before-you-die/ http://www.roj.com.np/life-inspiration/steve-jobs-how-to-liv... "About a year ago I was diagnosed with cancer. I had a scan at 7:30 in the morning, and it clearly showed a tumor on my pancreas. I didn’t even know what a pancreas was. The doctors told me this was almost certainly a type of cancer that is incurable, and that I should expect to live no longer than three to six months. My doctor advised me to go home and get my affairs in order, which is doctor’s code for prepare to die. It means to try to tell your kids everything you thought you’d have the next 10 years to tell them in just a few months. It means to make sure everything is buttoned up so that it will be as easy as possible for your family. It means to say your goodbyes." "I lived with that diagnosis all day. Later that evening I had a biopsy, where they stuck an endoscope down my throat, through my stomach and into my intestines, put a needle into my pancreas and got a few cells from the tumor. I was sedated, but my wife, who was there, told me that when they viewed the cells under a microscope the doctors started crying because it turned out to be a very rare form of pancreatic cancer that is curable with surgery. I had the surgery and I’m fine now." He had the surgery. Successfully, as far as the doctors were concerned. And he lived the median number of years for those diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. This information was not hard to dig up. Stay classy, exit.

hugh3 15y ago
* And he lived the median number of years for those diagnosed with pancreatic cancer * The median number of years for those diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, or the median number of years for those diagnosed with this particular type of rare, operable pancreatic cancer?
- kstenerud 15y ago
  The median number of years for those diagnosed with islet cell carcinoma. For the regular kind it's 3-6 months.
bryanlarsen 15y ago
According to The Daily Beast: The cancer was detected during an abdominal scan in October 2003, as Fortune magazine reported in a 2008 cover story. October 2003 + ~9 months of alternative medicine + the ~12 months in his lecture brings you to June 2005, the commencement address.

monkeypizza 15y ago

Here is part of the abstract from "Use of CAM results in delay in seeking medical advice for breast cancer" (1) "On average, [Women who discovered a lump] took 8.7 weeks to inform the family and 17.2 weeks to first physician visit. Fifty three percent delayed seeking medical advice. Common reasons were; antecedent use of complimentary/alternative therapies (34%), lack of significance attached to the lump (23%), fear of surgery (22%), conflicting personal commitments (7%), fear of cancer (5%), and others (8%). Twenty nine percent practiced CAM before visiting any physician. Common methods used were homeopathy (70%), spiritual therapy (15%) and Ayurvedic medicine (13%). CAM use was associated with delay in seeking medical advice (OR: 5.6; 95% CI: 2.3, 13.3) and presentation at an advanced stage of disease (OR: 2.2; 95% CI: 1.01, 4.6). Patients who delayed seeking medical advice more often had positive axillary nodes and stage III/IV disease. Breast cancer patients in Pakistan frequently (53%) delay seeking medical advice. Antecedent practice of CAM is widespread and a common underlying reason. The delay results in significant worsening of the disease process." tl;dr - people delay medical treatment, and part of the reason is that they try alternative treatments, and only go to the doctor when the problem gets worse. This worsens the progress of their disease. This is why alternative medicine is bad. Because it kills people. Imagine how mad you would be if someone you loved delayed treatment for a real problem because they were following advice to try alternative, "natural" medicine they'd received from a friend. We are responsible for the outcomes of what we do, not just the sentiment behind it. 1) http://www.springerlink.com/content/k8p0400u2u77242l/ http://www.springerlink.com/content/k8p0400u2u77242l/

mechnik 15y ago
Those 29% who "practiced CAM before visiting any physician" would be better served visiting a physician who utilizes CAM as an adjunct to his practice, who would recognize their concerns, and encourage those patients not to delay any required treatments.
- monkeypizza 15y ago
  Unfortunately, though, few homeopaths would give this type of advice. Most homeopaths actively recommend people not use scientific medicine. The following quotes are from an investigation of what type of advice real homeopaths give when asked to recommend treatment for someone planning to visit areas exposed to malaria. "... I tried to find out what homeopaths would offer to a young traveller seeking protection against malaria. Working with Alice Tuff and the charity Sense About Science, we developed a storyline in which Tuff would be making a ten week overland trip through West Africa, where there is a high prevalence of the most dangerous strain of malaria, which can result in death within three days. Tuff, a young graduate, would explain to homeopaths that she had previously suffered side-effects from conventional malaria tablets and wondered if there was a homeopathic alternative." ... "Next Tuff found a variety of homeopaths by searching on the internet, just as any young student might do. She then visited or phoned ten of them, mainly based in and around London. In each case, Tuff secretly recorded the conversations in order to document the consultation. The results were shocking. Seven out of the ten homeopaths failed to ask about the patient's medical background and also failed to offer any general advice about bite prevention. Worse still, ten out of ten homeopaths were willing to advise homeopathic protection against malaria instead of conventional treatment, which would have put our pretend traveller's life at risk." http://www.1023.org.uk/whats-the-harm-in-homeopathy.php http://www.1023.org.uk/whats-the-harm-in-homeopathy.php

toddmorey 15y ago

Counterpoint: Having been irrevocably harmed by modern medicine, I encourage everyone to always be a skeptic and a self-advocate when undergoing any approved or alternative therapy. Do research. Get multiple opinions. Be a strong, vocal participant in your plan of care.

RyanKearney 15y ago

Nonsense Steve, your diet "just works".

marknutter 15y ago

On the one hand, Steve Job's opinionated and stubborn nature helped craft some of the most successful consumer products in history, but tragically it may be that that same stubbornness and free thinking could very well have led to his early demise.