4 ms·

The rancour and confusion on these issues at the moment is awful, I just hope that it's something that we will get through and come out of with a better underst

by simonh 5y ago

The rancour and confusion on these issues at the moment is awful, I just hope that it's something that we will get through and come out of with a better understanding of trans issues and better lives for trans people. I'm hetero white male myself so have no standing on this, but going through the AIDS epidemic at it's height in the 80s as a teenager was a transformative experience for me. In particular the almost gleeful reaction to the advent of the "gay plague" from many religious conservatives in the US horrified me, especially as I consider myself broadly conservative, at least on economics. These were people I considered my natural political allies, but the words and actions of uncomfortably many of them were just monstrous. It was so painful watching LGB public figures (T issues were less prominent back then) go through such humiliating, degrading treatment in the media. Fortunately we seem to have got through that for the most part. Acceptance of LGB rights and respect for their dignity has, in the upcoming generation including my own kids, become thoroughly uncontroversial and they want to do right by Transgender people too. The Transgender debate is in a very difficult phase, partly because some issues like sports seem to overlap with and contend uncomfortably with hard won respect for women's rights and identity. You're quite right, the maximalist gender political wing isn't helping at all. Polarisation is not the way to go on this, it's going to take time for people to get to understand the issues and develop informed opinions, but the road we've travelled for LGB rights shows it's possible and worthwhile.

incomingpain 5y ago
>The rancour and confusion on these issues at the moment is awful, I just hope that it's something that we will get through and come out of with a better understanding of trans issues and better lives for trans people. I will guarantee that this won't happen. The current approach is radicalizing people against trans. >I'm hetero white male myself so have no standing on this, You're wrong. You are part of your society and your society must have a standing. Your opinion matters, whatever it might be. Never ever censor yourself on issues. When the mob comes because you don't have the right opinion. Humour and 'here's my opinion, why am I wrong' is the way to go. >but going through the AIDS epidemic at it's height in the 80s as a teenager was a transformative experience for me. In particular the almost gleeful reaction to the advent of the "gay plague" from many religious conservatives in the US horrified me, especially as I consider myself broadly conservative, at least on economics. This sounds like me. There is certainly a statistic that aids does disproportionately harm homosexual males. It's important to make people aware of this, but we both agree the republicans from ~40 years ago were a bit scummy. Hell even the Oreilly and Hannity era... But this changed. There's many many openly homosexual republicans now. Dave Rubin is probably one of the key people you would be interested in. He literally had Ben Shapiro on his show call him names to his face. That's what has to happen sometimes. >Fortunately we seem to have got through that for the most part. Acceptance of LGB rights and respect for their dignity has, in the upcoming generation including my own kids, become thoroughly uncontroversial and they want to do right by Transgender people too. Largely speaking not because of someone coming along and banning you for your views. But rather showing that their prejudices were wrong by being good people to them and talking to them. >The Transgender debate is in a very difficult phase, partly because some issues like sports seem to overlap with and contend uncomfortably with hard won respect for women's rights and identity. We aren't even close to the difficult phase yet. All the current pro-trans approaches are causing more animosity and censoring the debate that must occur will actually make the situation far worse than it currently is. >You're quite right, the maximalist gender political wing isn't helping at all. Polarisation is not the way to go on this, it's going to take time for people to get to understand the issues and develop informed opinions, but the road we've travelled for LGB rights shows it's possible and worthwhile. The other key factor to deal with. Trans people are pawns in the grander scheme. This has little to do with trans people but rather a political issue that is being used to censor political opponents and remove their seat in the debate. This will come at the cost to Trans people.
- a_shovel 5y ago
  > The current approach is radicalizing people against trans. I have seen no evidence in support of this. There's plenty of anecdotes of people saying it happened to them, but no evidence of a widespread trend. I remember when "gay" was the insult du jour in middle school. Now high schools are having walkouts in opposition of homophobic laws [1]. This would never have happened ten years ago. It wasn't even conceivable twenty years ago. Gay rights were further from the mainstream than trans rights are now. These things move fast, and they move together. > There's many many openly homosexual republicans now. Did the Republican party start supporting gay marriage while I wasn't looking? Some republicans still feel comfortable questioning interracial marriage. > Trans people are pawns in the grander scheme. This has little to do with trans people but rather a political issue that is being used to censor political opponents and remove their seat in the debate. Maybe they aren't. Maybe trans people are the important issue here. Maybe people really do believe the things they say they believe, support the things they say they support. It's a comforting thought to deny it, because if attacks on trans people aren't a proxy for some other issue, then it rules out the easy solutions where you can just convince them to stop. [1] https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/07/us/orange-county-florida-high-school-walkout-dont-say-gay-bill/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/07/us/orange-county-florida-high...
  - incomingpain 5y ago
    >I have seen no evidence in support of this. There's plenty of anecdotes of people saying it happened to them, but no evidence of a widespread trend. I hope you are right and I am wrong. >I remember when "gay" was the insult du jour in middle school. Still is. Let's go find a random thread on reddit that has nothing to do with sex or gender. https://www.reddit.com/r/greentext/comments/tm3kd6/anon_has_no_friends/i1xg3si/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 https://www.reddit.com/r/greentext/comments/tm3kd6/anon_has_... And that's reddit... where there are no conservatives left. They've banned all of us. >Now high schools are having walkouts in opposition of homophobic laws [1] School walkouts by children aren't because the students are so well versed and well informed on issues. They were convinced by the teachers to walk out. People who wanted to skip school joins. In terms of this specific one of 'dont say gay' https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2022/1557/BillText/er/PDF https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2022/1557/BillText/er/... Ctrl + F "gay": 0 results. Ctrl + F "homo": 0 results. So frankly the title of 'dont say gay' is propaganda. So what does it say? Classroom instruction by school personnel or third 98 parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur 99 in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age 100 appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards. So it's not that they banned saying gay. They banned talking about sexual orientation with children below grade 3. So 8 years old? Do kids younger than 8 years old need to know about sexual orientation as defined by the government? or should parents be responsible here? I say parents, but this is a key political point. There is no objective truth of what is right or wrong on this issue. What should the age be? Age of consent is similar, no one has the answer to what the age of consent should be. >Did the Republican party start supporting gay marriage while I wasn't looking? Some republicans still feel comfortable questioning interracial marriage. Not exactly what I said; but its amazing how people are allowed to have differing views. I'm not in or from the USA so I'm not going to defend unnamed random republicans who probably dont represent the party. How about Trump's position: https://www.ontheissues.org/2020/Donald_Trump_Civil_Rights.htm#LGBT_Rights https://www.ontheissues.org/2020/Donald_Trump_Civil_Rights.h... Ya he went around the world and picked a fight with places like the middle east and russia to fight for gay rights. Seems like Trump was doing the right thing? That gay marriage is a state issue. Which it very clearly is a state issue. >Maybe they aren't. Maybe trans people are the important issue here. Maybe people really do believe the things they say they believe, support the things they say they support. It's a comforting thought to deny it, because if attacks on trans people aren't a proxy for some other issue, then it rules out the easy solutions where you can just convince them to stop. We could go into this if you're interested. We would need primers on the grand debt cycle, the new world order stuff(mainly china becoming #1, good job USA shipping all your factories to china), the USA losing their reserve currency benefits, and the coming probable civil war as indicated by the huge political polarization coming from the democratic party. So for example this 43 minute video covering it only slightly, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xguam0TKMw8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xguam0TKMw8

by simonh 5y ago

incomingpain 5y ago

>The rancour and confusion on these issues at the moment is awful, I just hope that it's something that we will get through and come out of with a better understanding of trans issues and better lives for trans people. I will guarantee that this won't happen. The current approach is radicalizing people against trans. >I'm hetero white male myself so have no standing on this, You're wrong. You are part of your society and your society must have a standing. Your opinion matters, whatever it might be. Never ever censor yourself on issues. When the mob comes because you don't have the right opinion. Humour and 'here's my opinion, why am I wrong' is the way to go. >but going through the AIDS epidemic at it's height in the 80s as a teenager was a transformative experience for me. In particular the almost gleeful reaction to the advent of the "gay plague" from many religious conservatives in the US horrified me, especially as I consider myself broadly conservative, at least on economics. This sounds like me. There is certainly a statistic that aids does disproportionately harm homosexual males. It's important to make people aware of this, but we both agree the republicans from ~40 years ago were a bit scummy. Hell even the Oreilly and Hannity era... But this changed. There's many many openly homosexual republicans now. Dave Rubin is probably one of the key people you would be interested in. He literally had Ben Shapiro on his show call him names to his face. That's what has to happen sometimes. >Fortunately we seem to have got through that for the most part. Acceptance of LGB rights and respect for their dignity has, in the upcoming generation including my own kids, become thoroughly uncontroversial and they want to do right by Transgender people too. Largely speaking not because of someone coming along and banning you for your views. But rather showing that their prejudices were wrong by being good people to them and talking to them. >The Transgender debate is in a very difficult phase, partly because some issues like sports seem to overlap with and contend uncomfortably with hard won respect for women's rights and identity. We aren't even close to the difficult phase yet. All the current pro-trans approaches are causing more animosity and censoring the debate that must occur will actually make the situation far worse than it currently is. >You're quite right, the maximalist gender political wing isn't helping at all. Polarisation is not the way to go on this, it's going to take time for people to get to understand the issues and develop informed opinions, but the road we've travelled for LGB rights shows it's possible and worthwhile. The other key factor to deal with. Trans people are pawns in the grander scheme. This has little to do with trans people but rather a political issue that is being used to censor political opponents and remove their seat in the debate. This will come at the cost to Trans people.

a_shovel 5y ago
> The current approach is radicalizing people against trans. I have seen no evidence in support of this. There's plenty of anecdotes of people saying it happened to them, but no evidence of a widespread trend. I remember when "gay" was the insult du jour in middle school. Now high schools are having walkouts in opposition of homophobic laws [1]. This would never have happened ten years ago. It wasn't even conceivable twenty years ago. Gay rights were further from the mainstream than trans rights are now. These things move fast, and they move together. > There's many many openly homosexual republicans now. Did the Republican party start supporting gay marriage while I wasn't looking? Some republicans still feel comfortable questioning interracial marriage. > Trans people are pawns in the grander scheme. This has little to do with trans people but rather a political issue that is being used to censor political opponents and remove their seat in the debate. Maybe they aren't. Maybe trans people are the important issue here. Maybe people really do believe the things they say they believe, support the things they say they support. It's a comforting thought to deny it, because if attacks on trans people aren't a proxy for some other issue, then it rules out the easy solutions where you can just convince them to stop. [1] https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/07/us/orange-county-florida-high-school-walkout-dont-say-gay-bill/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/07/us/orange-county-florida-high...
- incomingpain 5y ago
  >I have seen no evidence in support of this. There's plenty of anecdotes of people saying it happened to them, but no evidence of a widespread trend. I hope you are right and I am wrong. >I remember when "gay" was the insult du jour in middle school. Still is. Let's go find a random thread on reddit that has nothing to do with sex or gender. https://www.reddit.com/r/greentext/comments/tm3kd6/anon_has_no_friends/i1xg3si/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 https://www.reddit.com/r/greentext/comments/tm3kd6/anon_has_... And that's reddit... where there are no conservatives left. They've banned all of us. >Now high schools are having walkouts in opposition of homophobic laws [1] School walkouts by children aren't because the students are so well versed and well informed on issues. They were convinced by the teachers to walk out. People who wanted to skip school joins. In terms of this specific one of 'dont say gay' https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2022/1557/BillText/er/PDF https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2022/1557/BillText/er/... Ctrl + F "gay": 0 results. Ctrl + F "homo": 0 results. So frankly the title of 'dont say gay' is propaganda. So what does it say? Classroom instruction by school personnel or third 98 parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur 99 in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age 100 appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards. So it's not that they banned saying gay. They banned talking about sexual orientation with children below grade 3. So 8 years old? Do kids younger than 8 years old need to know about sexual orientation as defined by the government? or should parents be responsible here? I say parents, but this is a key political point. There is no objective truth of what is right or wrong on this issue. What should the age be? Age of consent is similar, no one has the answer to what the age of consent should be. >Did the Republican party start supporting gay marriage while I wasn't looking? Some republicans still feel comfortable questioning interracial marriage. Not exactly what I said; but its amazing how people are allowed to have differing views. I'm not in or from the USA so I'm not going to defend unnamed random republicans who probably dont represent the party. How about Trump's position: https://www.ontheissues.org/2020/Donald_Trump_Civil_Rights.htm#LGBT_Rights https://www.ontheissues.org/2020/Donald_Trump_Civil_Rights.h... Ya he went around the world and picked a fight with places like the middle east and russia to fight for gay rights. Seems like Trump was doing the right thing? That gay marriage is a state issue. Which it very clearly is a state issue. >Maybe they aren't. Maybe trans people are the important issue here. Maybe people really do believe the things they say they believe, support the things they say they support. It's a comforting thought to deny it, because if attacks on trans people aren't a proxy for some other issue, then it rules out the easy solutions where you can just convince them to stop. We could go into this if you're interested. We would need primers on the grand debt cycle, the new world order stuff(mainly china becoming #1, good job USA shipping all your factories to china), the USA losing their reserve currency benefits, and the coming probable civil war as indicated by the huge political polarization coming from the democratic party. So for example this 43 minute video covering it only slightly, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xguam0TKMw8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xguam0TKMw8