5 ms·

A surprising number of twitch and twitter bans this week. Destiny for example is now permanently banned from twitch because he took the position that trans shou

A surprising number of twitch and twitter bans this week. Destiny for example is now permanently banned from twitch because he took the position that trans shouldn't compete in physical sports. Meanwhile, he has extensive history of supporting trans rights in full on debates. As they say, the left eats their own because they could no longer attack anyone but their own. Let's throw down. I am trans and have had srs(brassard). I am absolutely not affiliated with the LGBT political activist group. What is going on? Trans people are treated like horseshit and ostracized from society. When you have a greatly disenfranchised group of people who basically hate society. Their goal becomes tearing down society. Destruction of society is the goal. You have some politicians who want to help and effectively help integrate trans people back into society. However, they did this through compelled speech laws. You either say their ridiculous pronouns or you end up in front of a 'hate crime tribunal' quite literally. This isn't helping the situation at all. This is in fact making the problem far worse.

hackerfromthefu 5y ago
I agree with your points so much, all of them. What do you think might be some better possibilities than the current mess?
- frozencell 5y ago
  Them to rebuild societies far from politicians
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- incomingpain 5y ago
  >I agree with your points so much, all of them. Honestly expected to get banned for my view. People are being banned off social media for far far less. >What do you think might be some better possibilities than the current mess? Some think the fix is straight forward, stop ostracizing people. This isn't just trans, it's all the usual 'cant discriminate against' and if we simply stop saying bad words that it'll be all better. That seems on the face like it would fix the problem; but clearly hasn't over how many decades now? The problem is that this approach is literally causing the problem. How about the baddest word of them all, the N-word. You dont dare say it. Has this done anything at all to stop this racism? Clearly not. Imagine we start saying it'll ILLEGAL to say some pejorative for white people. You know what happens? You will get a ton of people now saying it. It's edgy, it's maybe hurtful? They'll say it. If my political opponent says I cant say something. I am going to say it. I probably never said it before but because you say I can't say it. I'm going to start saying it. Bring me to the hate crime tribunal, send me to prison. So what? Government can't do anything? Precisely. The government is literally harming everything here. How does society fix prejudice? Not by force. For the general population, how did homosexuals start getting a good rap? People like Neil Patrick Harris being open about it, BUT not throwing it in anyones face. While also being an awesome person. Elton John? Queen? So many great examples. How about black people? Will Smith, Neil Degrasse Tyson, Morgan Freeman, Denzel Washington, SO MANY awesome black people who don't really get in your face about it. In fact, just stop talking about race and be awesome is exactly what they say to do. How about atheists? Penn Jillette talks exactly on the subject. You need to not throw it in people's face. You be a good person and nice person. You win people over. Dealing with extremists is not that different. Daryl Davis is beyond brilliant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORp3q1Oaezw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORp3q1Oaezw Joe Rogan has also interviewed Daryl a bunch of times. Here's the complication. The current approach of banning people because they wont say their Ze/Zir pronouns does what exactly? It disenfranchises people. Is this not exactly what we are trying to fix? What happens when you now disenfranchise these *phobes. They will come to hate society in exactly the same way. If you are a daryl davis, these bans are hurting your cause. There will be people who see Destiny banned and will become transphobes. There's tons of people who see Babylon Bee ban and become even more entrenched against trans people. Rachel Levine being labelled women of the year because of being appointed to a job is beyond absurd. How about Kamala Harris as woman of the year? Clearly far more worthy. First female(and black?) vice president? What a huge success. I could name how many other far more worthy women. Tons of people say 'twitter isnt free speech. free speech is the government' On the contrary. Section 230 is how Twitter exists and clearly establishes free speech on twitter. You absolutely should have free speech on twitter and other social media. It's a political move by the government to not enforce Section 230 and therefore is the government removing free speech rights. Want to ultimately and quickly fix this problem. Enforce Section 230's free speech. Mandate free speech with the very few exceptions therein for social media. Disallow these entities to censor speech. You will quickly find this problem goes away.
  - tekknik 5y ago
    Nothing important to add, I just wanted to say I wish more people on that side of the fence thought like you!
simonh 5y ago
The rancour and confusion on these issues at the moment is awful, I just hope that it's something that we will get through and come out of with a better understanding of trans issues and better lives for trans people. I'm hetero white male myself so have no standing on this, but going through the AIDS epidemic at it's height in the 80s as a teenager was a transformative experience for me. In particular the almost gleeful reaction to the advent of the "gay plague" from many religious conservatives in the US horrified me, especially as I consider myself broadly conservative, at least on economics. These were people I considered my natural political allies, but the words and actions of uncomfortably many of them were just monstrous. It was so painful watching LGB public figures (T issues were less prominent back then) go through such humiliating, degrading treatment in the media. Fortunately we seem to have got through that for the most part. Acceptance of LGB rights and respect for their dignity has, in the upcoming generation including my own kids, become thoroughly uncontroversial and they want to do right by Transgender people too. The Transgender debate is in a very difficult phase, partly because some issues like sports seem to overlap with and contend uncomfortably with hard won respect for women's rights and identity. You're quite right, the maximalist gender political wing isn't helping at all. Polarisation is not the way to go on this, it's going to take time for people to get to understand the issues and develop informed opinions, but the road we've travelled for LGB rights shows it's possible and worthwhile.
- incomingpain 5y ago
  >The rancour and confusion on these issues at the moment is awful, I just hope that it's something that we will get through and come out of with a better understanding of trans issues and better lives for trans people. I will guarantee that this won't happen. The current approach is radicalizing people against trans. >I'm hetero white male myself so have no standing on this, You're wrong. You are part of your society and your society must have a standing. Your opinion matters, whatever it might be. Never ever censor yourself on issues. When the mob comes because you don't have the right opinion. Humour and 'here's my opinion, why am I wrong' is the way to go. >but going through the AIDS epidemic at it's height in the 80s as a teenager was a transformative experience for me. In particular the almost gleeful reaction to the advent of the "gay plague" from many religious conservatives in the US horrified me, especially as I consider myself broadly conservative, at least on economics. This sounds like me. There is certainly a statistic that aids does disproportionately harm homosexual males. It's important to make people aware of this, but we both agree the republicans from ~40 years ago were a bit scummy. Hell even the Oreilly and Hannity era... But this changed. There's many many openly homosexual republicans now. Dave Rubin is probably one of the key people you would be interested in. He literally had Ben Shapiro on his show call him names to his face. That's what has to happen sometimes. >Fortunately we seem to have got through that for the most part. Acceptance of LGB rights and respect for their dignity has, in the upcoming generation including my own kids, become thoroughly uncontroversial and they want to do right by Transgender people too. Largely speaking not because of someone coming along and banning you for your views. But rather showing that their prejudices were wrong by being good people to them and talking to them. >The Transgender debate is in a very difficult phase, partly because some issues like sports seem to overlap with and contend uncomfortably with hard won respect for women's rights and identity. We aren't even close to the difficult phase yet. All the current pro-trans approaches are causing more animosity and censoring the debate that must occur will actually make the situation far worse than it currently is. >You're quite right, the maximalist gender political wing isn't helping at all. Polarisation is not the way to go on this, it's going to take time for people to get to understand the issues and develop informed opinions, but the road we've travelled for LGB rights shows it's possible and worthwhile. The other key factor to deal with. Trans people are pawns in the grander scheme. This has little to do with trans people but rather a political issue that is being used to censor political opponents and remove their seat in the debate. This will come at the cost to Trans people.
treesprite82 5y ago
> Destiny for example is now permanently banned from twitch because he took the position that trans shouldn't compete in physical sports. Destiny's ban reason and length are only speculated (Twitch uses "indefinite" in its literal sense). May also be from having Nick Fuentes on stream recently, since Twitch can be strict about featuring banned streamers [0]. Others guessed that it was this tweet [1] but I doubt it - seems to be something on-stream. If the ban is from the trans athletes take (I do agree that it's the most likely cause), Destiny's usual edginess [2] probably contributed. Others have been fine with the same position. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30801959 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30801959 [1]: https://archive.ph/wRM6u https://archive.ph/wRM6u [2]: https://streamable.com/trlxfu https://streamable.com/trlxfu (not my title, I'd say there's deniability in the exact (sub)group being referred to)
- incomingpain 5y ago
  >Destiny's ban reason and length are only speculated (Twitch uses "indefinite" in its literal sense). https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/tnegaw/the_end_of_an_era_rip_twitchtvdestiny_20112022/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/tnegaw/the_end_of_... >If the ban is from the trans athletes take (I do agree that it's the most likely cause), Destiny's usual edginess [2] probably contributed. Others have been fine with the same position. It seems just because he had been banned several times before they finally just said enough is enough.
da39a3ee 5y ago
Thanks for writing this, I agree with the things you've said in this thread (or at least they sound right to me, even if I don't have the experience of them). > Let's throw down. Sure! If I'm being honest, when I'm upset/angry about this I've started to sometimes apply the label "transphobic" to myself. I'm not. I have no hatred or negative feelings or lack of sympathy toward anyone, especially not people with feelings about their bodies and identity that are making their lives difficult and causing them to be be badly treated by others. But I know that so many under-40 educated liberals would call me transphobic for my views that I've found myself in anger giving up and saying "fuck it, then I'm transphobic if that's your definition of that term". My position is that I have a definition of "man" and "woman" that I have had since I was a child, and I then became a biologist, and everything I learned confirmed that the traditional definitions of "man" and "woman" were accurate-enough for humans and other mammals to be appropriate terminology, and hence I am not going to change my conception of the human sexes under duress from ideological young progressives. My position is also, as I said above, that of course, absolutely every human being gets treated humanely and with respect and sympathy regardless of the situation they are in or their body or internal psychology (unless they have done something evil). I am not transphobic, but it's accurate to say that I am highly critical of the trans-activist movement (obviously speaking generally -- I'm sure there are many wonderful people who consider themselves part of that movement). So I guess I'm transactivistphobic, in the sense that yes, with the cancel culture, and attacks on feminism and disregard for science, I am prejudiced against trans activism.
- incomingpain 5y ago
  >Sure! If I'm being honest, when I'm upset/angry about this I've started to sometimes apply the label "transphobic" to myself. Do you know which group is statistically the most transphobic? LGBT people, especially Trans. The why is complicated, often stemming from self-denial. Please note, I'm not calling you trans, but I'm saying it's fine to have feelings like this. Another big statistic most dont seem to know. The majority of trans who get surgeries... IT people. Why? Nobody knows. >I have no hatred or negative feelings or lack of sympathy toward anyone, especially not people with feelings about their bodies and identity that are making their lives difficult and causing them to be be badly treated by others. I would welcome you to respond to situations properly. When you see something like: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/its-maam https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/its-maam This trans person was clearly the upset one. Why? Well what do you think happens when you're recently started taking estrogen? Technically don't know what meds they were on, but HRT is near certain. A common, if not the primary symptom of HRT is that your emotions are going to run hot. You then might react incorrectly to a situation and cause a scene. It's going to happen. This is no different than what women go through during puberty, pms, and pregnancy when hormones go a bit wacky. >But I know that so many under-40 educated liberals would call me transphobic for my views that I've found myself in anger giving up and saying "fuck it, then I'm transphobic if that's your definition of that term". What's wrong with being transphobic? What other phobias are wrong to be? I fear needles, aichmophobia, am I wrong about that? You can be transphobic. You can even justly judge people like that above link. The thing you need to understand or think about. Not all Trans people are a problem. The 'pre judgement' or 'prejudice' of all in a group is the problem. >My position is that I have a definition of "man" and "woman" that I have had since I was a child, and I then became a biologist, and everything I learned confirmed that the traditional definitions of "man" and "woman" were accurate-enough for humans and other mammals to be appropriate terminology, and hence I am not going to change my conception of the human sexes under duress from ideological young progressives. The subject is greater than xx vs xy chromosomes to be sure. You totally got it right on the last part. Some progressive political folks dont get to unilaterally modify language and even in some cases punish people for not accepting their unilateral change. Yet here we are where major social media platforms have done exactly that. >My position is also, as I said above, that of course, absolutely every human being gets treated humanely and with respect and sympathy regardless of the situation they are in or their body or internal psychology (unless they have done something evil). My pronouns are probably they/them but they arent. Unofficially my pronouns are beep/boop. Call me whatever the hell you please. When did we drop the sticks and stones reality here? Here's the thing, when I was in the air force. Pre-everything. No surgery, no transition. Didnt really admit anything to myself. Some civilian started flipping out on me for nothing. Reports that were completely false. Would tell me I had to use the mens changing room. Basically on my case all the time that I was in the gym. I filed harassment complaint. It was flipped on me, it was considered illegal for me to be in the airforce because trans werent allowed in the canadian military. That this illegal use of the harassment complaint system was actually harassment of the gym dude. They tried to release me honourably but I fought it. I denied being trans. The chief warrant helped me in the case demanded they prove I was trans. They couldn't and dropped it. From then... I had a day2day job of delivering mail for the base. After dinner, I then would cycle through cleaning the base, firewatch, etc. For the next ~6 months I literally never got a minute to myself. Clear harassment but it was illegal for me to complain. I had to quit and they accepted without even discussing it with me. Mind you... canadian military had loads of openly homosexual people. They even at the time had a recruiting quota focusing on hiring more homosexuals and women. It was only a hand full of years later when they legalized trans being in the canadian military. This is a problem. I hadn't transitioned or did anything. I can only imagine how poorly those who have transitioned would be treated. > I am not transphobic, but it's accurate to say that I am highly critical of the trans-activist movement (obviously speaking generally -- I'm sure there are many wonderful people who consider themselves part of that movement). So I guess I'm transactivistphobic, in the sense that yes, with the cancel culture, and attacks on feminism and disregard for science, I am prejudiced against trans activism. The LGBT activists do not represent all LGBT people. The media sure seems to push that this is the case. All I ask, don't treat all trans people like they are these activists. I would guess that most trans dont agree with these people.
a_shovel 5y ago
It's really odd to see a transgender person attacking people for having "ridiculous pronouns" because most LGBT people, in activism or otherwise, have a solidarity-based approach. That's why it's LGBT and not separate lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender rights movements. It gains strength from unity, because the problems they face are all really the same problem. The opponents of LGBT rights don't always attack all of them at once. Sometimes they just attack the group that's the most controversial or vulnerable, or those that haven't gained widespread acceptance yet. Nonbinary people with "ridiculous" neopronouns would be the latter. The thing is, if the argument is accepted against one group, it'll likely be accepted against others too. This already happens; conservatives' "one joke" about trans people ("I identify as an attack helicopter") is specifically mocking nonbinary people, but it's usually used to attack binary trans people. If neopronouns are ridiculous, they say, why would you accept a man [sic] saying he's [sic] a woman? And if that works, then they'll move on to lesbian, gay, and bi people, as it's been frequently noted that every attack against transgender people is a recycled attack against gay people. So when I see people complaining about "compelled speech" for "ridiculous pronouns", I get a bit suspicious. ("The left eats its own" is also a popular right-wing narrative for portraying every dispute between a leftist and (someone they think they can get away with calling) a leftist as the beginning of the end for leftism, proof of their treachery, etc., so that's also an interesting inclusion.)
- incomingpain 5y ago
  >It's really odd to see a transgender person attacking people for having "ridiculous pronouns" because most LGBT people, in activism or otherwise, have a solidarity-based approach. Not true in my experience. This to me is only true as how it is portrayed by the fake news media folks. >That's why it's LGBT and not separate lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender rights movements. It gains strength from unity, because the problems they face are all really the same problem. There's certainly something to be said about unity and trying to fight for what is right. We are past that stage by a long shot. >The opponents of LGBT rights don't always attack all of them at once. Sometimes they just attack the group that's the most controversial or vulnerable, or those that haven't gained widespread acceptance yet. Nonbinary people with "ridiculous" neopronouns would be the latter. Absolutely nobody has a problem with picking whatever pronouns you want. It's on you to earn the respect needed to get people to use the pronouns. You don't get to go to the government and demand compelled speech because people think you're ridiculous. >This already happens; conservatives' "one joke" about trans people ("I identify as an attack helicopter") is specifically mocking nonbinary people, but it's usually used to attack binary trans people I am trans, I am non-binary, I have had SRS. Surely you accept that I get to pick my pronouns. I ought to be a they/them, I'm not. I was also airforce and find the attack helicopter one awesome. I have used that one in public before. However, all these pronouns are dumb. Right now if I were to be forced to pick pronouns. I am Beep/Boop. Let's even backtrack slightly. Where is your threshold for when you get to pick pronouns? Do you require surgeries? Lets say that you dont believe surgery is required. Then those conservative trans people who picked their pronoun of attack helicopter are actively being mocked? Or do conservatives have to pick from the list of left-wing approved pronouns? Why do the left wing get to unilaterally get to decide this list? >So when I see people complaining about "compelled speech" for "ridiculous pronouns", I get a bit suspicious. Being suspicious is a good thing. Are you accusing me of not being trans enough? Obviously the compelled speech comment is not about the USA. I am VERY jealous of the USA having free speech; unlike here in Canada. >("The left eats its own" is also a popular right-wing narrative for portraying every dispute between a leftist and (someone they think they can get away with calling) a leftist as the beginning of the end for leftism, proof of their treachery, etc., so that's also an interesting inclusion.) I do believe Destiny is left-wing and has extensively supported for trans rights. I'm not going to speak to his entire political position. Here's the thing. You are talking about 'narrative' which by definition implies that this is not true or a fiction or a story. Lets step back a second, what if I am right? That this isnt a narrative...
iosono88 5y ago

hackerfromthefu 5y ago

I agree with your points so much, all of them. What do you think might be some better possibilities than the current mess?

frozencell 5y ago
Them to rebuild societies far from politicians
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
incomingpain 5y ago
>I agree with your points so much, all of them. Honestly expected to get banned for my view. People are being banned off social media for far far less. >What do you think might be some better possibilities than the current mess? Some think the fix is straight forward, stop ostracizing people. This isn't just trans, it's all the usual 'cant discriminate against' and if we simply stop saying bad words that it'll be all better. That seems on the face like it would fix the problem; but clearly hasn't over how many decades now? The problem is that this approach is literally causing the problem. How about the baddest word of them all, the N-word. You dont dare say it. Has this done anything at all to stop this racism? Clearly not. Imagine we start saying it'll ILLEGAL to say some pejorative for white people. You know what happens? You will get a ton of people now saying it. It's edgy, it's maybe hurtful? They'll say it. If my political opponent says I cant say something. I am going to say it. I probably never said it before but because you say I can't say it. I'm going to start saying it. Bring me to the hate crime tribunal, send me to prison. So what? Government can't do anything? Precisely. The government is literally harming everything here. How does society fix prejudice? Not by force. For the general population, how did homosexuals start getting a good rap? People like Neil Patrick Harris being open about it, BUT not throwing it in anyones face. While also being an awesome person. Elton John? Queen? So many great examples. How about black people? Will Smith, Neil Degrasse Tyson, Morgan Freeman, Denzel Washington, SO MANY awesome black people who don't really get in your face about it. In fact, just stop talking about race and be awesome is exactly what they say to do. How about atheists? Penn Jillette talks exactly on the subject. You need to not throw it in people's face. You be a good person and nice person. You win people over. Dealing with extremists is not that different. Daryl Davis is beyond brilliant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORp3q1Oaezw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORp3q1Oaezw Joe Rogan has also interviewed Daryl a bunch of times. Here's the complication. The current approach of banning people because they wont say their Ze/Zir pronouns does what exactly? It disenfranchises people. Is this not exactly what we are trying to fix? What happens when you now disenfranchise these *phobes. They will come to hate society in exactly the same way. If you are a daryl davis, these bans are hurting your cause. There will be people who see Destiny banned and will become transphobes. There's tons of people who see Babylon Bee ban and become even more entrenched against trans people. Rachel Levine being labelled women of the year because of being appointed to a job is beyond absurd. How about Kamala Harris as woman of the year? Clearly far more worthy. First female(and black?) vice president? What a huge success. I could name how many other far more worthy women. Tons of people say 'twitter isnt free speech. free speech is the government' On the contrary. Section 230 is how Twitter exists and clearly establishes free speech on twitter. You absolutely should have free speech on twitter and other social media. It's a political move by the government to not enforce Section 230 and therefore is the government removing free speech rights. Want to ultimately and quickly fix this problem. Enforce Section 230's free speech. Mandate free speech with the very few exceptions therein for social media. Disallow these entities to censor speech. You will quickly find this problem goes away.
- tekknik 5y ago
  Nothing important to add, I just wanted to say I wish more people on that side of the fence thought like you!

simonh 5y ago

The rancour and confusion on these issues at the moment is awful, I just hope that it's something that we will get through and come out of with a better understanding of trans issues and better lives for trans people. I'm hetero white male myself so have no standing on this, but going through the AIDS epidemic at it's height in the 80s as a teenager was a transformative experience for me. In particular the almost gleeful reaction to the advent of the "gay plague" from many religious conservatives in the US horrified me, especially as I consider myself broadly conservative, at least on economics. These were people I considered my natural political allies, but the words and actions of uncomfortably many of them were just monstrous. It was so painful watching LGB public figures (T issues were less prominent back then) go through such humiliating, degrading treatment in the media. Fortunately we seem to have got through that for the most part. Acceptance of LGB rights and respect for their dignity has, in the upcoming generation including my own kids, become thoroughly uncontroversial and they want to do right by Transgender people too. The Transgender debate is in a very difficult phase, partly because some issues like sports seem to overlap with and contend uncomfortably with hard won respect for women's rights and identity. You're quite right, the maximalist gender political wing isn't helping at all. Polarisation is not the way to go on this, it's going to take time for people to get to understand the issues and develop informed opinions, but the road we've travelled for LGB rights shows it's possible and worthwhile.

incomingpain 5y ago
>The rancour and confusion on these issues at the moment is awful, I just hope that it's something that we will get through and come out of with a better understanding of trans issues and better lives for trans people. I will guarantee that this won't happen. The current approach is radicalizing people against trans. >I'm hetero white male myself so have no standing on this, You're wrong. You are part of your society and your society must have a standing. Your opinion matters, whatever it might be. Never ever censor yourself on issues. When the mob comes because you don't have the right opinion. Humour and 'here's my opinion, why am I wrong' is the way to go. >but going through the AIDS epidemic at it's height in the 80s as a teenager was a transformative experience for me. In particular the almost gleeful reaction to the advent of the "gay plague" from many religious conservatives in the US horrified me, especially as I consider myself broadly conservative, at least on economics. This sounds like me. There is certainly a statistic that aids does disproportionately harm homosexual males. It's important to make people aware of this, but we both agree the republicans from ~40 years ago were a bit scummy. Hell even the Oreilly and Hannity era... But this changed. There's many many openly homosexual republicans now. Dave Rubin is probably one of the key people you would be interested in. He literally had Ben Shapiro on his show call him names to his face. That's what has to happen sometimes. >Fortunately we seem to have got through that for the most part. Acceptance of LGB rights and respect for their dignity has, in the upcoming generation including my own kids, become thoroughly uncontroversial and they want to do right by Transgender people too. Largely speaking not because of someone coming along and banning you for your views. But rather showing that their prejudices were wrong by being good people to them and talking to them. >The Transgender debate is in a very difficult phase, partly because some issues like sports seem to overlap with and contend uncomfortably with hard won respect for women's rights and identity. We aren't even close to the difficult phase yet. All the current pro-trans approaches are causing more animosity and censoring the debate that must occur will actually make the situation far worse than it currently is. >You're quite right, the maximalist gender political wing isn't helping at all. Polarisation is not the way to go on this, it's going to take time for people to get to understand the issues and develop informed opinions, but the road we've travelled for LGB rights shows it's possible and worthwhile. The other key factor to deal with. Trans people are pawns in the grander scheme. This has little to do with trans people but rather a political issue that is being used to censor political opponents and remove their seat in the debate. This will come at the cost to Trans people.

treesprite82 5y ago

> Destiny for example is now permanently banned from twitch because he took the position that trans shouldn't compete in physical sports. Destiny's ban reason and length are only speculated (Twitch uses "indefinite" in its literal sense). May also be from having Nick Fuentes on stream recently, since Twitch can be strict about featuring banned streamers [0]. Others guessed that it was this tweet [1] but I doubt it - seems to be something on-stream. If the ban is from the trans athletes take (I do agree that it's the most likely cause), Destiny's usual edginess [2] probably contributed. Others have been fine with the same position. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30801959 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30801959 [1]: https://archive.ph/wRM6u https://archive.ph/wRM6u [2]: https://streamable.com/trlxfu https://streamable.com/trlxfu (not my title, I'd say there's deniability in the exact (sub)group being referred to)

incomingpain 5y ago
>Destiny's ban reason and length are only speculated (Twitch uses "indefinite" in its literal sense). https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/tnegaw/the_end_of_an_era_rip_twitchtvdestiny_20112022/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/tnegaw/the_end_of_... >If the ban is from the trans athletes take (I do agree that it's the most likely cause), Destiny's usual edginess [2] probably contributed. Others have been fine with the same position. It seems just because he had been banned several times before they finally just said enough is enough.

da39a3ee 5y ago

Thanks for writing this, I agree with the things you've said in this thread (or at least they sound right to me, even if I don't have the experience of them). > Let's throw down. Sure! If I'm being honest, when I'm upset/angry about this I've started to sometimes apply the label "transphobic" to myself. I'm not. I have no hatred or negative feelings or lack of sympathy toward anyone, especially not people with feelings about their bodies and identity that are making their lives difficult and causing them to be be badly treated by others. But I know that so many under-40 educated liberals would call me transphobic for my views that I've found myself in anger giving up and saying "fuck it, then I'm transphobic if that's your definition of that term". My position is that I have a definition of "man" and "woman" that I have had since I was a child, and I then became a biologist, and everything I learned confirmed that the traditional definitions of "man" and "woman" were accurate-enough for humans and other mammals to be appropriate terminology, and hence I am not going to change my conception of the human sexes under duress from ideological young progressives. My position is also, as I said above, that of course, absolutely every human being gets treated humanely and with respect and sympathy regardless of the situation they are in or their body or internal psychology (unless they have done something evil). I am not transphobic, but it's accurate to say that I am highly critical of the trans-activist movement (obviously speaking generally -- I'm sure there are many wonderful people who consider themselves part of that movement). So I guess I'm transactivistphobic, in the sense that yes, with the cancel culture, and attacks on feminism and disregard for science, I am prejudiced against trans activism.

incomingpain 5y ago
>Sure! If I'm being honest, when I'm upset/angry about this I've started to sometimes apply the label "transphobic" to myself. Do you know which group is statistically the most transphobic? LGBT people, especially Trans. The why is complicated, often stemming from self-denial. Please note, I'm not calling you trans, but I'm saying it's fine to have feelings like this. Another big statistic most dont seem to know. The majority of trans who get surgeries... IT people. Why? Nobody knows. >I have no hatred or negative feelings or lack of sympathy toward anyone, especially not people with feelings about their bodies and identity that are making their lives difficult and causing them to be be badly treated by others. I would welcome you to respond to situations properly. When you see something like: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/its-maam https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/its-maam This trans person was clearly the upset one. Why? Well what do you think happens when you're recently started taking estrogen? Technically don't know what meds they were on, but HRT is near certain. A common, if not the primary symptom of HRT is that your emotions are going to run hot. You then might react incorrectly to a situation and cause a scene. It's going to happen. This is no different than what women go through during puberty, pms, and pregnancy when hormones go a bit wacky. >But I know that so many under-40 educated liberals would call me transphobic for my views that I've found myself in anger giving up and saying "fuck it, then I'm transphobic if that's your definition of that term". What's wrong with being transphobic? What other phobias are wrong to be? I fear needles, aichmophobia, am I wrong about that? You can be transphobic. You can even justly judge people like that above link. The thing you need to understand or think about. Not all Trans people are a problem. The 'pre judgement' or 'prejudice' of all in a group is the problem. >My position is that I have a definition of "man" and "woman" that I have had since I was a child, and I then became a biologist, and everything I learned confirmed that the traditional definitions of "man" and "woman" were accurate-enough for humans and other mammals to be appropriate terminology, and hence I am not going to change my conception of the human sexes under duress from ideological young progressives. The subject is greater than xx vs xy chromosomes to be sure. You totally got it right on the last part. Some progressive political folks dont get to unilaterally modify language and even in some cases punish people for not accepting their unilateral change. Yet here we are where major social media platforms have done exactly that. >My position is also, as I said above, that of course, absolutely every human being gets treated humanely and with respect and sympathy regardless of the situation they are in or their body or internal psychology (unless they have done something evil). My pronouns are probably they/them but they arent. Unofficially my pronouns are beep/boop. Call me whatever the hell you please. When did we drop the sticks and stones reality here? Here's the thing, when I was in the air force. Pre-everything. No surgery, no transition. Didnt really admit anything to myself. Some civilian started flipping out on me for nothing. Reports that were completely false. Would tell me I had to use the mens changing room. Basically on my case all the time that I was in the gym. I filed harassment complaint. It was flipped on me, it was considered illegal for me to be in the airforce because trans werent allowed in the canadian military. That this illegal use of the harassment complaint system was actually harassment of the gym dude. They tried to release me honourably but I fought it. I denied being trans. The chief warrant helped me in the case demanded they prove I was trans. They couldn't and dropped it. From then... I had a day2day job of delivering mail for the base. After dinner, I then would cycle through cleaning the base, firewatch, etc. For the next ~6 months I literally never got a minute to myself. Clear harassment but it was illegal for me to complain. I had to quit and they accepted without even discussing it with me. Mind you... canadian military had loads of openly homosexual people. They even at the time had a recruiting quota focusing on hiring more homosexuals and women. It was only a hand full of years later when they legalized trans being in the canadian military. This is a problem. I hadn't transitioned or did anything. I can only imagine how poorly those who have transitioned would be treated. > I am not transphobic, but it's accurate to say that I am highly critical of the trans-activist movement (obviously speaking generally -- I'm sure there are many wonderful people who consider themselves part of that movement). So I guess I'm transactivistphobic, in the sense that yes, with the cancel culture, and attacks on feminism and disregard for science, I am prejudiced against trans activism. The LGBT activists do not represent all LGBT people. The media sure seems to push that this is the case. All I ask, don't treat all trans people like they are these activists. I would guess that most trans dont agree with these people.

a_shovel 5y ago

It's really odd to see a transgender person attacking people for having "ridiculous pronouns" because most LGBT people, in activism or otherwise, have a solidarity-based approach. That's why it's LGBT and not separate lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender rights movements. It gains strength from unity, because the problems they face are all really the same problem. The opponents of LGBT rights don't always attack all of them at once. Sometimes they just attack the group that's the most controversial or vulnerable, or those that haven't gained widespread acceptance yet. Nonbinary people with "ridiculous" neopronouns would be the latter. The thing is, if the argument is accepted against one group, it'll likely be accepted against others too. This already happens; conservatives' "one joke" about trans people ("I identify as an attack helicopter") is specifically mocking nonbinary people, but it's usually used to attack binary trans people. If neopronouns are ridiculous, they say, why would you accept a man [sic] saying he's [sic] a woman? And if that works, then they'll move on to lesbian, gay, and bi people, as it's been frequently noted that every attack against transgender people is a recycled attack against gay people. So when I see people complaining about "compelled speech" for "ridiculous pronouns", I get a bit suspicious. ("The left eats its own" is also a popular right-wing narrative for portraying every dispute between a leftist and (someone they think they can get away with calling) a leftist as the beginning of the end for leftism, proof of their treachery, etc., so that's also an interesting inclusion.)

incomingpain 5y ago
>It's really odd to see a transgender person attacking people for having "ridiculous pronouns" because most LGBT people, in activism or otherwise, have a solidarity-based approach. Not true in my experience. This to me is only true as how it is portrayed by the fake news media folks. >That's why it's LGBT and not separate lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender rights movements. It gains strength from unity, because the problems they face are all really the same problem. There's certainly something to be said about unity and trying to fight for what is right. We are past that stage by a long shot. >The opponents of LGBT rights don't always attack all of them at once. Sometimes they just attack the group that's the most controversial or vulnerable, or those that haven't gained widespread acceptance yet. Nonbinary people with "ridiculous" neopronouns would be the latter. Absolutely nobody has a problem with picking whatever pronouns you want. It's on you to earn the respect needed to get people to use the pronouns. You don't get to go to the government and demand compelled speech because people think you're ridiculous. >This already happens; conservatives' "one joke" about trans people ("I identify as an attack helicopter") is specifically mocking nonbinary people, but it's usually used to attack binary trans people I am trans, I am non-binary, I have had SRS. Surely you accept that I get to pick my pronouns. I ought to be a they/them, I'm not. I was also airforce and find the attack helicopter one awesome. I have used that one in public before. However, all these pronouns are dumb. Right now if I were to be forced to pick pronouns. I am Beep/Boop. Let's even backtrack slightly. Where is your threshold for when you get to pick pronouns? Do you require surgeries? Lets say that you dont believe surgery is required. Then those conservative trans people who picked their pronoun of attack helicopter are actively being mocked? Or do conservatives have to pick from the list of left-wing approved pronouns? Why do the left wing get to unilaterally get to decide this list? >So when I see people complaining about "compelled speech" for "ridiculous pronouns", I get a bit suspicious. Being suspicious is a good thing. Are you accusing me of not being trans enough? Obviously the compelled speech comment is not about the USA. I am VERY jealous of the USA having free speech; unlike here in Canada. >("The left eats its own" is also a popular right-wing narrative for portraying every dispute between a leftist and (someone they think they can get away with calling) a leftist as the beginning of the end for leftism, proof of their treachery, etc., so that's also an interesting inclusion.) I do believe Destiny is left-wing and has extensively supported for trans rights. I'm not going to speak to his entire political position. Here's the thing. You are talking about 'narrative' which by definition implies that this is not true or a fiction or a story. Lets step back a second, what if I am right? That this isnt a narrative...

iosono88 5y ago