5 ms·

”As members see it, a person born with male privilege can no more shed it through surgery than a white person can claim an African-American identity simply by d

”As members see it, a person born with male privilege can no more shed it through surgery than a white person can claim an African-American identity simply by darkening his or her skin.” Gotta admit I find it hard to disagree with this, even if I usually disagree with extremist ideological groups.

polishdude20 5y ago
How is that the same though? They're comparing privilege to identity. Two different things. "Male Privilege" is based on the fact that society treats you differently as a male than as a female. Not because you're born with some innate power that you collect once at birth and can never give away. This is why a surgery CAN shed male privilege. Maybe not all of what benefits you've accumulated this far, but you may have many years on this earth left afterwards which would not include that "privilege" anymore.
- 7steps2much 5y ago
  Isn't skin color based privilege the same though? If someone darkens their skin so everyone perceives them as black instead of white, then that person lost their privileges of that point forth. White privilege is very much a treatment by society. Racism and sexism are both enacted upon by people based on social norms.
  - mc32 5y ago
    Rachel Dolazal. The overarching phenomenon is ‘dominant privilege’. In a gender studies program certain people have privilege. In Japan certain people have privilege, within a ghetto certain people have privilege, within Fortune 500s certain people have privilege. However people mainly focus on certain dominant groups in select socio economic areas of the US. But this phenomenon is found everywhere.
- fif8fjrvuc 5y ago
supergirl 5y ago
I can disagree. someone that decides to be a different gender than what his appearance dictates is definitely similar to someone that takes up the african culture even though his appearance dictates differently. it’s not the surgery that makes one transgender, they were transgender before and they chose the surgery to minimize the contradiction between identity and body
- low_tech_love 5y ago
  The point is not that they are not entitled to their chosen identity, but that they should be more sensitive to issues that go beyond the identity and not try to suddenly magically become part of it. Nobody will forbid a white man to use ghetto clothes, but if he suddenly starts to act like he is suffering with racism, that will sound weird. If trans people can’t understand and empathize with the fact that they did not experience the prejudice before, and have the common sense to stay out of the specific issue, then sorry but they are the ones being insensitive and screwing their own chosen ”equals”.
treeman79 5y ago
If person can force everyone around them to acknowledge the gender of their preference. Why can’t I force people to acknowledge the race or age of my choosing?
- aklemm 5y ago
  Age is literally just a fact AND people try to identify as different ages all the time, but the race question is interesting. It seems to me the ultimate goal should be to greatly minimize the differences between sexes and races (drop the traditional, ignorant differentiations we’ve created) and then the urge to identify differently to your physical expression may subside.
redpanda_salami 5y ago
If you acknowledge that there is discrimination towards transgender people then you acknowledge that transgender people have a lot to lose by outing themselves to the world. I'm not here to say that transgender discrimination = discrimination women encounter based on their gender, and I don't believe that the argument that transgender people are making either. Instead, why not look at transgender people as a newly oppressed group that encounter entirely distinct issues? Transgender people understand that they have not grown up with the same experiences as a natural born Woman, and they do not claim to be able to speak for Woman's experiences in that sense. So all they are asking for is to be recognized as legitimate people and to not be seen as suicidal, depressed, mentally ill people.
- DiggyJohnson 5y ago
  I respectfully disagree. They are asking for us to believe that “trans women are women” with absolutely no wiggle room (e.g. collegiate sports). I thought there was wiggle room, but alas…
- low_tech_love 5y ago
  You have a good point and I basically agree with it 100%. I don’t think any feminist would disagree that transgender people have their own issues to deal with. What they want is to make sure different things are treated differently, and I think it’s reasonable.
thr407891 5y ago
I think this is dead wrong, actually. There are a lot of minorities who adopt certain styles, language, or even names, precisely as a way to fit in better with the (in America, white) majority. I am white, but I was born in a rural area where people have a distinctive accent. Growing up, I was told by some teachers that we needed to shed the accent and adopt a more conventional way of speaking so that people wouldn't look down on us. One teacher even shared his own experience of intentionally modifying his voice in college so that he would get more respect. If a person modifies their methods of speech to better match a different identity group, for whatever reason, would they not begin to receive the level of privilege, or lack thereof, associated with the other identity group? Now I agree that a person can't claim an "African-American identity" just by changing their skin, that seems wrong. However, if a person looks "black" then they will be treated by society like they are black, so they have to some degree shed white privilege. In the case of Rachel Dolezal, this actually worked to her benefit because of the social justice circles she was in, at least until she was unmasked. The way others treat you is related to the way others perceive your identity, not the "census definition" of your identity. Trans women often look completely feminine. In that case, a stranger would treat them as a women, unless said stranger knew of their sex. What is privilege, if not the sum of the ways in which other individuals treat you? So, these trans women do not have male privilege, at least going forward. Sometimes, trans women don't look feminine. They are visibly transgender. In that case, they are probably not being treated like women. However, it's glaring obvious that openly transgender people aren't treated very well by society at large. If you don't believe this, then try an experiment. Wear a wig and a dress (if you're male), or a get a haircut and "he/him" pronoun badge (if you're female), and spend some time hanging out in public spaces. Be sure to visit the bathroom. I think you'll find out pretty quickly the type of abuse that trans people face daily. So, if openly trans people are treated badly, perhaps even worse than women, then logically they have less privilege. The radical feminist objection that they retain male privilege makes no sense.

polishdude20 5y ago

How is that the same though? They're comparing privilege to identity. Two different things. "Male Privilege" is based on the fact that society treats you differently as a male than as a female. Not because you're born with some innate power that you collect once at birth and can never give away. This is why a surgery CAN shed male privilege. Maybe not all of what benefits you've accumulated this far, but you may have many years on this earth left afterwards which would not include that "privilege" anymore.

7steps2much 5y ago
Isn't skin color based privilege the same though? If someone darkens their skin so everyone perceives them as black instead of white, then that person lost their privileges of that point forth. White privilege is very much a treatment by society. Racism and sexism are both enacted upon by people based on social norms.
- mc32 5y ago
  Rachel Dolazal. The overarching phenomenon is ‘dominant privilege’. In a gender studies program certain people have privilege. In Japan certain people have privilege, within a ghetto certain people have privilege, within Fortune 500s certain people have privilege. However people mainly focus on certain dominant groups in select socio economic areas of the US. But this phenomenon is found everywhere.
fif8fjrvuc 5y ago

supergirl 5y ago

I can disagree. someone that decides to be a different gender than what his appearance dictates is definitely similar to someone that takes up the african culture even though his appearance dictates differently. it’s not the surgery that makes one transgender, they were transgender before and they chose the surgery to minimize the contradiction between identity and body

low_tech_love 5y ago
The point is not that they are not entitled to their chosen identity, but that they should be more sensitive to issues that go beyond the identity and not try to suddenly magically become part of it. Nobody will forbid a white man to use ghetto clothes, but if he suddenly starts to act like he is suffering with racism, that will sound weird. If trans people can’t understand and empathize with the fact that they did not experience the prejudice before, and have the common sense to stay out of the specific issue, then sorry but they are the ones being insensitive and screwing their own chosen ”equals”.

treeman79 5y ago

If person can force everyone around them to acknowledge the gender of their preference. Why can’t I force people to acknowledge the race or age of my choosing?

aklemm 5y ago
Age is literally just a fact AND people try to identify as different ages all the time, but the race question is interesting. It seems to me the ultimate goal should be to greatly minimize the differences between sexes and races (drop the traditional, ignorant differentiations we’ve created) and then the urge to identify differently to your physical expression may subside.

redpanda_salami 5y ago

If you acknowledge that there is discrimination towards transgender people then you acknowledge that transgender people have a lot to lose by outing themselves to the world. I'm not here to say that transgender discrimination = discrimination women encounter based on their gender, and I don't believe that the argument that transgender people are making either. Instead, why not look at transgender people as a newly oppressed group that encounter entirely distinct issues? Transgender people understand that they have not grown up with the same experiences as a natural born Woman, and they do not claim to be able to speak for Woman's experiences in that sense. So all they are asking for is to be recognized as legitimate people and to not be seen as suicidal, depressed, mentally ill people.

DiggyJohnson 5y ago
I respectfully disagree. They are asking for us to believe that “trans women are women” with absolutely no wiggle room (e.g. collegiate sports). I thought there was wiggle room, but alas…
low_tech_love 5y ago
You have a good point and I basically agree with it 100%. I don’t think any feminist would disagree that transgender people have their own issues to deal with. What they want is to make sure different things are treated differently, and I think it’s reasonable.

thr407891 5y ago

I think this is dead wrong, actually. There are a lot of minorities who adopt certain styles, language, or even names, precisely as a way to fit in better with the (in America, white) majority. I am white, but I was born in a rural area where people have a distinctive accent. Growing up, I was told by some teachers that we needed to shed the accent and adopt a more conventional way of speaking so that people wouldn't look down on us. One teacher even shared his own experience of intentionally modifying his voice in college so that he would get more respect. If a person modifies their methods of speech to better match a different identity group, for whatever reason, would they not begin to receive the level of privilege, or lack thereof, associated with the other identity group? Now I agree that a person can't claim an "African-American identity" just by changing their skin, that seems wrong. However, if a person looks "black" then they will be treated by society like they are black, so they have to some degree shed white privilege. In the case of Rachel Dolezal, this actually worked to her benefit because of the social justice circles she was in, at least until she was unmasked. The way others treat you is related to the way others perceive your identity, not the "census definition" of your identity. Trans women often look completely feminine. In that case, a stranger would treat them as a women, unless said stranger knew of their sex. What is privilege, if not the sum of the ways in which other individuals treat you? So, these trans women do not have male privilege, at least going forward. Sometimes, trans women don't look feminine. They are visibly transgender. In that case, they are probably not being treated like women. However, it's glaring obvious that openly transgender people aren't treated very well by society at large. If you don't believe this, then try an experiment. Wear a wig and a dress (if you're male), or a get a haircut and "he/him" pronoun badge (if you're female), and spend some time hanging out in public spaces. Be sure to visit the bathroom. I think you'll find out pretty quickly the type of abuse that trans people face daily. So, if openly trans people are treated badly, perhaps even worse than women, then logically they have less privilege. The radical feminist objection that they retain male privilege makes no sense.