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One reason the EU missed out on the internet… Here in Germany, everyone is afraid to start a web startup The EU does actually have a variety of "internet" comp

One reason the EU missed out on the internet… Here in Germany, everyone is afraid to start a web startup The EU does actually have a variety of "internet" companies – and that includes Germany! There are certainly less of them; regulation could be one of the things that affects that, but it seems way more likely to be a wildly different environment for funding. Investors are more conservative and far less likely to throw dumb money at anything that moves, which means fewer successful unicorns. I'm not sure that's the best approach, but I'm not an investor. they spend endless amounts of energy on agonizing over the GDPR No they don't. GDPR compliance is generally fairly straightforward for any company which isn't trying to deliberately harvest and profit from your data—particularly a new company with no legacy—and in any case represents a set of practices that should be followed by any company dealing with private data in any case. By the same token, those startups have to worry far less about the nonsense patent and IP environment in the US. So worst case we'll call it a wash. We sanctioned ourselfes by making the use of foreign SAAS illegal. This did not happen. Use of non-EU SaaS is legal, subject to it being compliant with local regulation. I'm always a bit weirded out by strenuous objections to GDPR – it seems to me that the data privacy environment in Europe is broadly pretty sensible. You need to: - know what data you are using - have a good justification for using it - take appropriate precautions to secure it - make sure users are aware of what you are doing with it - allow users to access and correct the data you hold on them I find it hard to object to that.

FreeHugs 5y ago
That sounds very theoretical. I witness the journey of several German startups for a while now and get a very different picture. Many of the most powerful web tools are not compatible with the GDPR. Google Analytics. Ad marketplaces. Free CDNs. And its all a moving target. I see small companies struggling for years now with these problems. And they will keep struggling for the forseeable future.
- gcthomas 5y ago
  It is the most powerful tools that I want restricted. the milli-second bidding auctions for ad placements and the tracking that goes on to enable that is unethical and illegal. There are perfectly good alternatives that don't abuse my personal data — companies should use those.
  - zaroth 5y ago
    That’s great, but the question is about the second order effects. Have you taken them fully into account when you declare that these regulations are what you want? Or do you want the first order effects only (who wouldn’t?!) and just stop your analysis there? Declaring that there are “perfectly good alternatives” sounds like dismissal of the second order effects, which certainly makes supporting the regulations much easier to sit with.
    - gcthomas 5y ago
      It seems that I get hit with the negative first order effects, and VCs benefit from the putative positive second order ones. No, I'm happy to have the legal eagles stop this without-consent data sharing, and if the corporations lose a bit of money, then that's fine by me.
- matthewmacleod 5y ago
  My experience says that this is pretty far from the truth, and nobody is really struggling with any of this stuff. It's all been "yeah I guess we have to pay attention to privacy, that's a bit annoying" and then getting on with it. What you're saying basically boils down to "if we stop worrying about user data then we can make more money!" which… yeah, I guess. In the same way that companies could make more money if we let them pump effluent directly into rivers – but we don't do that.
emptysongglass 5y ago
You are declaring things as facts but my experience is yes startups do spend huge capital on ensuring GDPR compliance and neurotically worry over it. I also have experience from two start-up scale-ups that many clients are saying we won't work with you if you use a US Big Cloud. The EU alternatives are much worse and this causes lots of developer waste now ensuring the platform runs as well on the Big Cloud as it does with really terrible EU-cloud.
- matthewmacleod 5y ago
  Yes, I am declaring these things as facts based on my own experience with European startups – yours may vary. So far, the approach has been miles away from "spending huge capital" or "neurotically worrying", and much more "just following the regulations and getting on with it". I also have experience from two start-up scale-ups that many clients are saying we won't work with you if you use a US Big Cloud Yeah, I've not heard this from anyone – but if it's the case, it sounds like there's market pressure to use services that offer better protection of personal data. Sounds like you've found an opportunity to offer an EU-based cloud service that's better than the competition :)
  - emptysongglass 5y ago
    I'm confused: your Hacker News blurb says you're the head of a UK based company. Where are you getting your direct experience from? This is going to sound more aggressive than it is but it doesn't look like you're qualified to be declaring these kinds of facts on the realities faced by EU businesses. I'm still working at one of the two companies I mentioned, in Denmark. It's a very real problem for us right now. And I think you're understating the effort required to launch a competitive cloud, especially given the regulatory hurdles of the EU.
    - matthewmacleod 5y ago
      Where are you getting your direct experience from? This is going to sound more aggressive than it is but it doesn't look like you're qualified to be declaring these kinds of facts on the realities faced by EU businesses. I would suggest you focus on talking about the specific issues you face rather than questioning my background, but bear in mind that the UK was part of the GDPR pre-Brexit, is presently subject to much the same regime, our company is a recipient of Horizon 2020 funding, we have offices, customers and investors in the EU, and I have spent several years now dealing with the regulatory issues raised by GDPR and how they impact on our business. I am reasonably confident that I know what I'm talking about – you experience may vary, and I am way more interested in hearing what you feel your challenges are than I am in nitpicking your credentials.
1234letshaveatw 5y ago
Reading this is so entertaining. "It's not the regulation that has depressed the EU startup scene, it is depressed because we in the EU are too smart."
- matthewmacleod 5y ago
  Well, that’s obviously not what I said - indeed, the point was that European investors can often be conservative to the point of stupidity and throwing around dumb money can be the smart move.

FreeHugs 5y ago

That sounds very theoretical. I witness the journey of several German startups for a while now and get a very different picture. Many of the most powerful web tools are not compatible with the GDPR. Google Analytics. Ad marketplaces. Free CDNs. And its all a moving target. I see small companies struggling for years now with these problems. And they will keep struggling for the forseeable future.

gcthomas 5y ago
It is the most powerful tools that I want restricted. the milli-second bidding auctions for ad placements and the tracking that goes on to enable that is unethical and illegal. There are perfectly good alternatives that don't abuse my personal data — companies should use those.
- zaroth 5y ago
  That’s great, but the question is about the second order effects. Have you taken them fully into account when you declare that these regulations are what you want? Or do you want the first order effects only (who wouldn’t?!) and just stop your analysis there? Declaring that there are “perfectly good alternatives” sounds like dismissal of the second order effects, which certainly makes supporting the regulations much easier to sit with.
  - gcthomas 5y ago
    It seems that I get hit with the negative first order effects, and VCs benefit from the putative positive second order ones. No, I'm happy to have the legal eagles stop this without-consent data sharing, and if the corporations lose a bit of money, then that's fine by me.
matthewmacleod 5y ago
My experience says that this is pretty far from the truth, and nobody is really struggling with any of this stuff. It's all been "yeah I guess we have to pay attention to privacy, that's a bit annoying" and then getting on with it. What you're saying basically boils down to "if we stop worrying about user data then we can make more money!" which… yeah, I guess. In the same way that companies could make more money if we let them pump effluent directly into rivers – but we don't do that.

emptysongglass 5y ago

You are declaring things as facts but my experience is yes startups do spend huge capital on ensuring GDPR compliance and neurotically worry over it. I also have experience from two start-up scale-ups that many clients are saying we won't work with you if you use a US Big Cloud. The EU alternatives are much worse and this causes lots of developer waste now ensuring the platform runs as well on the Big Cloud as it does with really terrible EU-cloud.

matthewmacleod 5y ago
Yes, I am declaring these things as facts based on my own experience with European startups – yours may vary. So far, the approach has been miles away from "spending huge capital" or "neurotically worrying", and much more "just following the regulations and getting on with it". I also have experience from two start-up scale-ups that many clients are saying we won't work with you if you use a US Big Cloud Yeah, I've not heard this from anyone – but if it's the case, it sounds like there's market pressure to use services that offer better protection of personal data. Sounds like you've found an opportunity to offer an EU-based cloud service that's better than the competition :)
- emptysongglass 5y ago
  I'm confused: your Hacker News blurb says you're the head of a UK based company. Where are you getting your direct experience from? This is going to sound more aggressive than it is but it doesn't look like you're qualified to be declaring these kinds of facts on the realities faced by EU businesses. I'm still working at one of the two companies I mentioned, in Denmark. It's a very real problem for us right now. And I think you're understating the effort required to launch a competitive cloud, especially given the regulatory hurdles of the EU.
  - matthewmacleod 5y ago
    Where are you getting your direct experience from? This is going to sound more aggressive than it is but it doesn't look like you're qualified to be declaring these kinds of facts on the realities faced by EU businesses. I would suggest you focus on talking about the specific issues you face rather than questioning my background, but bear in mind that the UK was part of the GDPR pre-Brexit, is presently subject to much the same regime, our company is a recipient of Horizon 2020 funding, we have offices, customers and investors in the EU, and I have spent several years now dealing with the regulatory issues raised by GDPR and how they impact on our business. I am reasonably confident that I know what I'm talking about – you experience may vary, and I am way more interested in hearing what you feel your challenges are than I am in nitpicking your credentials.

1234letshaveatw 5y ago

Reading this is so entertaining. "It's not the regulation that has depressed the EU startup scene, it is depressed because we in the EU are too smart."

matthewmacleod 5y ago
Well, that’s obviously not what I said - indeed, the point was that European investors can often be conservative to the point of stupidity and throwing around dumb money can be the smart move.