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Oh, man, such a shame about all these laws.. [checks notes].. protecting users from predatory company behavior. Things would be so much easier if we didn't have

Oh, man, such a shame about all these laws.. [checks notes].. protecting users from predatory company behavior. Things would be so much easier if we didn't have those laws - we could all start web startups.

FreeHugs 5y ago
Regulating local companies is making things only worse. That is the reason why all of Europe depends on foreign tools in the first place. It is a similar death spiral to how we deal with the housing problem. People have a hard time finding affordable apartments in the city centers? Create more laws that limit rents! Does this create more apartments? No. It just send the local housing market further down the drain.
- AitchEmArsey 5y ago
  By your own argument, foreign companies can navigate the rules for selling into Europe just fine - so what is stopping a European company from doing the same? If there is any remaining problem it is that the rules are not enforced strictly enough on tech giants.
  - FreeHugs 5y ago
    Lets talk about startups first: An indie dev in New York does not care about the GDPR. The just build cool shit and put it online. Look at all the Show HNs here. In the EU, the situation is very different. Indie devs are super afraid and work hard to make their stuff less useful to please the GDPR. Now about larger players: EU companies agonize their worldwide users with cookie banners. Because that is what the GDPR tells them to do. Non EU companies dont do that. Because why should they? Will a lone Italian traveller in the USA sue them for using Google fonts? Probably not. And if they do - they can handle it. So they only agonize their EU users with cookie banners.
    - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
      Unlike in UE, EU companies are not allowed to sell their customers data to random third parrty spammer, scammers, adtech companies and bounty hunters. That is it - as a startup, GDPR is not a massive prohlem. You know what is a real problem? The fact that you can raise 10x more investment in the US with the same slide deck.
    - igorkraw 5y ago
      Small correction: the indie devs just building cools shit are fine under GDPR. The indie dev who wants to monetize his community while not caring about the externalities of possibly leaking their information has a headache. If your business model depends on creating undesirable externalities for your "users" then you don't have my sympathy. The only shame is that we still need to enforce GDPR properly on large players, but that's a political and social thing, not per se a problem with the law itself. And the oh so horrible cookie banners: the solution would be to not track people. If you aren't fully acting in the users interest, the cookie banner is easy to implement, or maybe not even required. So whenever you are annoyed by a cookie banner, it should be directed at the company, not the law.
      - elvischidera 5y ago
        What's the limit that an indie could go without caring about GDPR. Is it actually until they want to be "commercial"?
        kreeben 5y ago
        It's not until you decide you want to start tracking people or in other ways use their PII that you should become worried, indie or not.
        sofixa 5y ago
        No, it's until they decide they want to abuse personal data.
        igorkraw 5y ago
        Until they start saving PII that is not necessary for their core business relationship with the user. If your app is literally about self quantification and the user pays you to collect that data and keep it private? You might not even need to state it anywhere, although the safe thing is of course to list all the ways you do or do not collect data. If your app is about self quantification and you monetize by selling user data or its aggregates... GDPR. If you use a third party data provider instead of hosting the data yourself: GDPR etc. Because user data might not be important to you, but it is to your users, so you probably shouldn't be allowed to YOLO handling it
- hnbad 5y ago
  And yet US companies keep biting the bullet and abiding by regulations (or bleeding money to pay the massive fines for violating them) to keep doing business in the EU. So what if those companies can get away with abusing their non-EU users and use those to generate most of their profits. Are you more concerned about providing services and improving quality of life in the EU or with a handful of rich kids in the EU being able to rake in the same kind of cash as their American counterparts? It's funny you think deregulating housing would solve the housing crisis. If you think rent limits are a disincentive to build more affordable housing, how about we just subsidize loans for non-commercial home ownership instead of expecting investors who want a ROI to either make their luxury apartments more affordable for no good reason or adhere to health and safety standards in their barely profitable social housing projects? After all, if tenants can cough up the money to regularly pay ever-increasing rents they can surely pay back loans with similar rates.
thow-58d4e8b 5y ago
This is already a pattern in HN discussions: legislation is proposed, news outlets vaguely summarize it, the HN crowd interprets the summary in absurdly maximalist way without bothering to read the spirit and letter of the law; outrage ensues. This is coupled with an "I-know-better" condescension towards authorities, reinforced by a weird ideology that code is above law The legislation, at least the one coming from Brussels, is nearly always reasonable in scope, extent, impacts, penalties, and tends to strike a fair balance between specificity and vagueness as to allow the courts for some wiggle room for interpretation As an example, with interoperability, the final legislation might stipulate something similar to this: * once a software service reaches sufficient market size * the core functionality of the service must be exposed for interoperability * any breaking changes to core functionality must allow for sufficient period of backwards-compatibility and deprecation warnings. Exceptions for security breaches or other emergencies So, for Youtube, this would mean logging in, viewing videos and history. It doesn't mean that every single feature of every single web site must be publicly exposed and be backwards-compatible for eternity
- makomk 5y ago
  The GDPR had consequences that were both wider and wilder than even its most aggressive critics predicted at the time, such as making it illegal for the banking system to continue using their existing EBCDIC-based systems: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28986735 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28986735 The HN discussion was also full of comments about how the bank should've changed its systems already because it had ample time to come into compliance with the GDPR, never mind that no-one really even anticipatd this as a compliance issue at the time.
  - sofixa 5y ago
    That's a wild edge case. And yes, a bank or whoever should be able to note your real name. It's the banks' problem for using obsolete things, not a GDPR problem.
    - macinjosh 5y ago

FreeHugs 5y ago

Regulating local companies is making things only worse. That is the reason why all of Europe depends on foreign tools in the first place. It is a similar death spiral to how we deal with the housing problem. People have a hard time finding affordable apartments in the city centers? Create more laws that limit rents! Does this create more apartments? No. It just send the local housing market further down the drain.

AitchEmArsey 5y ago
By your own argument, foreign companies can navigate the rules for selling into Europe just fine - so what is stopping a European company from doing the same? If there is any remaining problem it is that the rules are not enforced strictly enough on tech giants.
- FreeHugs 5y ago
  Lets talk about startups first: An indie dev in New York does not care about the GDPR. The just build cool shit and put it online. Look at all the Show HNs here. In the EU, the situation is very different. Indie devs are super afraid and work hard to make their stuff less useful to please the GDPR. Now about larger players: EU companies agonize their worldwide users with cookie banners. Because that is what the GDPR tells them to do. Non EU companies dont do that. Because why should they? Will a lone Italian traveller in the USA sue them for using Google fonts? Probably not. And if they do - they can handle it. So they only agonize their EU users with cookie banners.
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    Unlike in UE, EU companies are not allowed to sell their customers data to random third parrty spammer, scammers, adtech companies and bounty hunters. That is it - as a startup, GDPR is not a massive prohlem. You know what is a real problem? The fact that you can raise 10x more investment in the US with the same slide deck.
  - igorkraw 5y ago
    Small correction: the indie devs just building cools shit are fine under GDPR. The indie dev who wants to monetize his community while not caring about the externalities of possibly leaking their information has a headache. If your business model depends on creating undesirable externalities for your "users" then you don't have my sympathy. The only shame is that we still need to enforce GDPR properly on large players, but that's a political and social thing, not per se a problem with the law itself. And the oh so horrible cookie banners: the solution would be to not track people. If you aren't fully acting in the users interest, the cookie banner is easy to implement, or maybe not even required. So whenever you are annoyed by a cookie banner, it should be directed at the company, not the law.
    - elvischidera 5y ago
      What's the limit that an indie could go without caring about GDPR. Is it actually until they want to be "commercial"?
      - kreeben 5y ago
        It's not until you decide you want to start tracking people or in other ways use their PII that you should become worried, indie or not.
      - sofixa 5y ago
        No, it's until they decide they want to abuse personal data.
      - igorkraw 5y ago
        Until they start saving PII that is not necessary for their core business relationship with the user. If your app is literally about self quantification and the user pays you to collect that data and keep it private? You might not even need to state it anywhere, although the safe thing is of course to list all the ways you do or do not collect data. If your app is about self quantification and you monetize by selling user data or its aggregates... GDPR. If you use a third party data provider instead of hosting the data yourself: GDPR etc. Because user data might not be important to you, but it is to your users, so you probably shouldn't be allowed to YOLO handling it
hnbad 5y ago
And yet US companies keep biting the bullet and abiding by regulations (or bleeding money to pay the massive fines for violating them) to keep doing business in the EU. So what if those companies can get away with abusing their non-EU users and use those to generate most of their profits. Are you more concerned about providing services and improving quality of life in the EU or with a handful of rich kids in the EU being able to rake in the same kind of cash as their American counterparts? It's funny you think deregulating housing would solve the housing crisis. If you think rent limits are a disincentive to build more affordable housing, how about we just subsidize loans for non-commercial home ownership instead of expecting investors who want a ROI to either make their luxury apartments more affordable for no good reason or adhere to health and safety standards in their barely profitable social housing projects? After all, if tenants can cough up the money to regularly pay ever-increasing rents they can surely pay back loans with similar rates.

thow-58d4e8b 5y ago

This is already a pattern in HN discussions: legislation is proposed, news outlets vaguely summarize it, the HN crowd interprets the summary in absurdly maximalist way without bothering to read the spirit and letter of the law; outrage ensues. This is coupled with an "I-know-better" condescension towards authorities, reinforced by a weird ideology that code is above law The legislation, at least the one coming from Brussels, is nearly always reasonable in scope, extent, impacts, penalties, and tends to strike a fair balance between specificity and vagueness as to allow the courts for some wiggle room for interpretation As an example, with interoperability, the final legislation might stipulate something similar to this: * once a software service reaches sufficient market size * the core functionality of the service must be exposed for interoperability * any breaking changes to core functionality must allow for sufficient period of backwards-compatibility and deprecation warnings. Exceptions for security breaches or other emergencies So, for Youtube, this would mean logging in, viewing videos and history. It doesn't mean that every single feature of every single web site must be publicly exposed and be backwards-compatible for eternity

makomk 5y ago
The GDPR had consequences that were both wider and wilder than even its most aggressive critics predicted at the time, such as making it illegal for the banking system to continue using their existing EBCDIC-based systems: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28986735 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28986735 The HN discussion was also full of comments about how the bank should've changed its systems already because it had ample time to come into compliance with the GDPR, never mind that no-one really even anticipatd this as a compliance issue at the time.
- sofixa 5y ago
  That's a wild edge case. And yes, a bank or whoever should be able to note your real name. It's the banks' problem for using obsolete things, not a GDPR problem.
  - macinjosh 5y ago