4 ms·

> consistent with previous details - that the dot switch in traditional B/W E-Ink uses 16 options (4bits - used 4 times it's 16 bits, all fits). What previous

> consistent with previous details - that the dot switch in traditional B/W E-Ink uses 16 options (4bits - used 4 times it's 16 bits, all fits). What previous details are you referring to? B/W E-Ink and CMYK ACEP are not remotely similar. > The interpretation of «gamut» as the term given by E-Ink is not trivial: That's why I asked why you so confidently said 65536 colors. It seems like that's completely wrong. I think it will be closer to 4 colors. And yes, I mean 4, not 2^4 colors. E-Ink colors doesn't work the way you seem to think it does. There's no subpixel arrangement the way Bayer RGB or other LCD arrangements work.

mdp2021 5y ago
> and CMYK ACEP ACeP is not CMYK. > It seems like that's completely wrong From what. > I think it will be closer to 4 colors Why, on which basis? Have you seen the photo of an ACeP rendering? Where do the "extra" colours come from, full-pixel-level dithering? > B/W E-Ink and CMYK ACEP are not remotely similar Source? What does it mean, «remotely»? > confidently What level of confidence does 'seem' suggest? It's an educated guess. Shaky? Well provide some argument then. > There's no subpixel arrangement the way Bayer RGB or other LCD arrangements work Why should that even be any one's assumption? ACeP has subpixel complexity: every pixel contains many particles of all the four pigments. That is of course perfectly apt, further implementation constraints aside, to represent the full logical range of combinations within a single pixel. Edit: also: If the capacity of ACeP is restricted to the basic («4 colors»), what would be the difference between "ACeP E Ink Gallery" and "ACeP E Ink Gallery Palette", the latter being «the same full-color ePaper film [but] driven by simpler electronics to support cost sensitive applications that do not require the full-color performance of ACeP [thus] supports the seven most frequently used colors in advertising and signage, namely: Black, White, Red, Yellow, Blue, Green and Orange»? See: https://www.eink.com/color-technology.html https://www.eink.com/color-technology.html
- robinsoh 5y ago
  > Have you seen the photo of an ACeP rendering? Where do the "extra" colours come from, full-pixel-level dithering? What do you mean "ACeP rendering"? Like artificial photo? I've seen ACeP at SID 2019 in real life and I could see from the zoom that there were only a small number of actual colors, less than 10 for sure. > ACeP has subpixel complexity: every pixel contains many particles of all the four pigments. That is of course perfectly apt, further implementation constraints aside, to represent the full logical range of combinations within a single pixel. Where do you see any statement that they can achieve "full logical range of combinations within a single pixel"?
  - mdp2021 5y ago
    Sorry for the delay. For «photo of an ACeP rendering» I meant some "witnessing" representation of the results of ACeP's workings; you have seen it live: good. I have not, and I am relying on the available material. From the pictures I could see, the apparent colours are many. Traditional B/W E-Ink displays achieve that (i.e. pixels rendering grey shades) through in-pixel dithering - within the cell you get an amount of B-particles and an amount of W-particles. To get similar "detail", or "effect of more colours being shown", with out-pixel dithering, you would need a proportionally high resolution. Some available photographic material taken of ACeP displays "in action" seems to exclude out-pixel dithering, hence work as one would suppose - you cannot get that richness with a "mosaic". This, especially if implicitly compared with some displays of similar technology that use fully discrete colour states (e.g. B/W/R). So, if the ACeP you saw at SID 2019 revealed using discreet states of primary colours (e.g. BWRGBYO), is it possible that you saw an implementation similar to the "ACeP E Ink Gallery Palette" instead of the "full" "ACeP E Ink Gallery"? Because: again: what is the difference between the two, if they both were "discreet BWRGBYO", without any "traditional" in-pixel dithering? Of course, judging from the pictures can be tricky: the Waveshare WS-18295 as seen at https://www.waveshare.com/5.65inch-e-Paper-Module-F.htm https://www.waveshare.com/5.65inch-e-Paper-Module-F.htm seems to show many more colours than the seven full-discreet. The small palette is much more evident in the corresponding E Ink AB1024-EGA ("E Ink Gallery Palette 4000"), as seen at https://shopkits.eink.com/product/5-65%cb%9d-e-ink-gallery-palette-4000-epaper-display-ab1024-ega/ https://shopkits.eink.com/product/5-65%cb%9d-e-ink-gallery-p... . Such gross dithering is of course expected as that product is explicitly an "ACeP-EIG*P*". Edit: and by the way, to achieve that effect of richness in colours that the available "photos" show is increasingly difficult using only "four inks and a base": there is no (e.g.) native yellow and orange in state-of-the-art "E Ink Gallery Plus ACeP"... > Where do you see any statement that they can achieve "full logical range of combinations within a single pixel" I have never expressed that and the idea to "achieve a logical range" makes no sense in the context. I said that subpixel complexity in ACeP is logically sufficient to represent a full range of combination without bringing on the table ideas of colour composition imported from heterogeneous technologies such as LCD.
    - robinsoh 5y ago

mdp2021 5y ago

> and CMYK ACEP ACeP is not CMYK. > It seems like that's completely wrong From what. > I think it will be closer to 4 colors Why, on which basis? Have you seen the photo of an ACeP rendering? Where do the "extra" colours come from, full-pixel-level dithering? > B/W E-Ink and CMYK ACEP are not remotely similar Source? What does it mean, «remotely»? > confidently What level of confidence does 'seem' suggest? It's an educated guess. Shaky? Well provide some argument then. > There's no subpixel arrangement the way Bayer RGB or other LCD arrangements work Why should that even be any one's assumption? ACeP has subpixel complexity: every pixel contains many particles of all the four pigments. That is of course perfectly apt, further implementation constraints aside, to represent the full logical range of combinations within a single pixel. Edit: also: If the capacity of ACeP is restricted to the basic («4 colors»), what would be the difference between "ACeP E Ink Gallery" and "ACeP E Ink Gallery Palette", the latter being «the same full-color ePaper film [but] driven by simpler electronics to support cost sensitive applications that do not require the full-color performance of ACeP [thus] supports the seven most frequently used colors in advertising and signage, namely: Black, White, Red, Yellow, Blue, Green and Orange»? See: https://www.eink.com/color-technology.html https://www.eink.com/color-technology.html

robinsoh 5y ago
> Have you seen the photo of an ACeP rendering? Where do the "extra" colours come from, full-pixel-level dithering? What do you mean "ACeP rendering"? Like artificial photo? I've seen ACeP at SID 2019 in real life and I could see from the zoom that there were only a small number of actual colors, less than 10 for sure. > ACeP has subpixel complexity: every pixel contains many particles of all the four pigments. That is of course perfectly apt, further implementation constraints aside, to represent the full logical range of combinations within a single pixel. Where do you see any statement that they can achieve "full logical range of combinations within a single pixel"?
- mdp2021 5y ago
  Sorry for the delay. For «photo of an ACeP rendering» I meant some "witnessing" representation of the results of ACeP's workings; you have seen it live: good. I have not, and I am relying on the available material. From the pictures I could see, the apparent colours are many. Traditional B/W E-Ink displays achieve that (i.e. pixels rendering grey shades) through in-pixel dithering - within the cell you get an amount of B-particles and an amount of W-particles. To get similar "detail", or "effect of more colours being shown", with out-pixel dithering, you would need a proportionally high resolution. Some available photographic material taken of ACeP displays "in action" seems to exclude out-pixel dithering, hence work as one would suppose - you cannot get that richness with a "mosaic". This, especially if implicitly compared with some displays of similar technology that use fully discrete colour states (e.g. B/W/R). So, if the ACeP you saw at SID 2019 revealed using discreet states of primary colours (e.g. BWRGBYO), is it possible that you saw an implementation similar to the "ACeP E Ink Gallery Palette" instead of the "full" "ACeP E Ink Gallery"? Because: again: what is the difference between the two, if they both were "discreet BWRGBYO", without any "traditional" in-pixel dithering? Of course, judging from the pictures can be tricky: the Waveshare WS-18295 as seen at https://www.waveshare.com/5.65inch-e-Paper-Module-F.htm https://www.waveshare.com/5.65inch-e-Paper-Module-F.htm seems to show many more colours than the seven full-discreet. The small palette is much more evident in the corresponding E Ink AB1024-EGA ("E Ink Gallery Palette 4000"), as seen at https://shopkits.eink.com/product/5-65%cb%9d-e-ink-gallery-palette-4000-epaper-display-ab1024-ega/ https://shopkits.eink.com/product/5-65%cb%9d-e-ink-gallery-p... . Such gross dithering is of course expected as that product is explicitly an "ACeP-EIG*P*". Edit: and by the way, to achieve that effect of richness in colours that the available "photos" show is increasingly difficult using only "four inks and a base": there is no (e.g.) native yellow and orange in state-of-the-art "E Ink Gallery Plus ACeP"... > Where do you see any statement that they can achieve "full logical range of combinations within a single pixel" I have never expressed that and the idea to "achieve a logical range" makes no sense in the context. I said that subpixel complexity in ACeP is logically sufficient to represent a full range of combination without bringing on the table ideas of colour composition imported from heterogeneous technologies such as LCD.
  - robinsoh 5y ago