4 ms·

The west is rash to assume the world is on its side over Ukraine (FT)

readonthegoapp 5y ago
https://archive.ph/8Pe46 https://archive.ph/8Pe46
Gollapalli 5y ago
Said this a few days ago. The majority of the world by most metrics is siding with Russia. >America risks being seduced by its own public relations. This happened long ago I'm afraid. It's why our wars go poorly and why our recent politics have been matters of outrage instead of understanding.
- thatwasunusual 5y ago
  > The majority of the world by most metrics is siding with Russia. That is wrong. It's important to point out that only four countris voted against the UN resolution; North Korea, Belarus, Eritrea and Syria. That's not the same as "the majority is siding with Russia."
  - Gollapalli 5y ago
    ... Did you read the article?
    - thatwasunusual 5y ago
      Yes. My reply was in response to the comment "the majority of the world by most metrics is _siding with_ Russia", which is wrong.
      - Gollapalli 5y ago
        Okay, let's qualify that a bit. The majority of the world is not not siding with Russia.
        Arnt 5y ago
        Try illustrating that with an example, perhaps? Take Argentina, which I picked at random because it starts with an A and is far both from the US, Europe and Russia. From what I can tell, it voted with the Ukraine in the UN, has done nothing to take Russia's side, and doesn't do much. Is that right, or have I missed something?
        Gollapalli 5y ago
        Did you read the article?
        thatwasunusual 5y ago
        Is "did you read the article?" your answer to everything in life?
        Arnt 5y ago
        Yes. I don't understand the question. Perhaps you want to only use examples from there, instead of some random country from "most of the world", is that it? Bahrain is mentioned. It voted with the Ukraine, isn't doing anything more, and isn't doing anything at all that Putin asks for. Not that it can — Bahrain can't very well buy Russian gas or oil, or sell Russia anything it needs. I suppose it could reduce its oil production, that would help Putin. Anyway, I like Argentina better as an example because Argentina is a customer for things Russia can sell and a source for a few things Russia needs. But Bahrain's position seems broadly similar: Ukrainian-friendly but not exerting itself at all. Feel free to inform me of aspects I've overlooked, of course.
jjgreen 5y ago
"The West", no? Which style-guide does the FT use?
999900000999 5y ago
This is a good reminder to step out of the US propaganda bubble. I make an effort to try get at least some of my news from outside of the West. I've seen a few Chinese news programs where they've made it abundantly clear, the power of American sanctions are waning, and China is not going to be pressured into doing what America wants. Our plans to cut China off from much of our advanced technology has only encouraged them to develop their own. You have chinese-made planes flying, phones which only use Chinese designed chips. As far as I can tell, China absolutely doesn't care what any other country does as long as it doesn't directly affect them. It wouldn't surprise me to see Putin speaking Chinese at a news conference, it looks like he's betting on them being the new dominant global power.
- cmurf 5y ago
  >absolutely doesn't care what any other country does as long as it doesn't directly affect them Taken literally, it means they are only an impediment to the U.N. Security Council's obligation to uphold the Charter. China remains only to have the veto, not because they actually care about their obligations to charter. The U.N. Charter is thus far the best thing humanity has invented to prevent another world war. If it's unwound, we're surely doomed to have another world war.
  - 999900000999 5y ago
    What ? Did you forget when the US ignored the UN and invaded Iraq anyway ?
    - cmurf 5y ago
      Comparing either Ukraine to Iraq or U.S. to Russia is specious. US, UK and 29 other nations invaded Iraq. It wasn't unilateral. Russia's invasion is. Invading Iraq wasn't about territorial expansion or subjugation. Russia's invasion is. There were dozen UN resolutions against Iraq, including Res 1441 promising "very severe consequences" for continued non-compliance. I personally don't consider the invasion consistent with Article 51, but the argument can be made. It definitely cannot be made about Ukraine. Russia never once brought a complaint about Ukraine before the UN. Russia has made clear in peace talks they intend border expansion by insisting on recognition of Crimea, Donbas, Luhansk as Russia. It's a breach of the Budapest treaty Russia is a party to. And the Charter. The invasion of Iraq never stood a chance of starting WW3. This does.
sharken 5y ago
It is as if the article assumes that everyone is an American. As a European, I am very much aware that much of the world doesn't really care if Ukraine disappears from the map or not. At least does not care enough to implement sanctions. But of the countries that should absolutely be against Putins actions in Ukraine, everyone is onboard which is good to see. China, India or Brazil cannot be relied on to impose heavy sanctions on Russia and that is the way it is. The West can however impose sanctions on countries that actively supply Russia, but that is about it regarding what can be done. And the West can keep on trying to gain support, as i think most countries can see what Putin has done with Ukraine is plain wrong. China will want to do to Taiwan what Putin is doing to Ukraine, so they will naturally be cautious of condemning Russia in any way. And given the current state of affairs, it is unlikely that China will risk it and try to take Taiwan by force.
simonblack 5y ago
The 'International Community' you always hear about. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FOFo3TaagAEYvUa?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FOFo3TaagAEYvUa?format=jpg&name=...
- sidibe 5y ago
  Looks like the liberal democracies with strong institutions that people want to migrate to. Other countries have more to worry about than what's going on in Ukraine and aren't speaking up for Russia either

https://archive.ph/8Pe46 https://archive.ph/8Pe46

Said this a few days ago. The majority of the world by most metrics is siding with Russia. >America risks being seduced by its own public relations. This happened long ago I'm afraid. It's why our wars go poorly and why our recent politics have been matters of outrage instead of understanding.

thatwasunusual 5y ago
> The majority of the world by most metrics is siding with Russia. That is wrong. It's important to point out that only four countris voted against the UN resolution; North Korea, Belarus, Eritrea and Syria. That's not the same as "the majority is siding with Russia."
- Gollapalli 5y ago
  ... Did you read the article?
  - thatwasunusual 5y ago
    Yes. My reply was in response to the comment "the majority of the world by most metrics is _siding with_ Russia", which is wrong.
    - Gollapalli 5y ago
      Okay, let's qualify that a bit. The majority of the world is not not siding with Russia.
      - Arnt 5y ago
        Try illustrating that with an example, perhaps? Take Argentina, which I picked at random because it starts with an A and is far both from the US, Europe and Russia. From what I can tell, it voted with the Ukraine in the UN, has done nothing to take Russia's side, and doesn't do much. Is that right, or have I missed something?
        Gollapalli 5y ago
        Did you read the article?
        thatwasunusual 5y ago
        Is "did you read the article?" your answer to everything in life?
        Arnt 5y ago
        Yes. I don't understand the question. Perhaps you want to only use examples from there, instead of some random country from "most of the world", is that it? Bahrain is mentioned. It voted with the Ukraine, isn't doing anything more, and isn't doing anything at all that Putin asks for. Not that it can — Bahrain can't very well buy Russian gas or oil, or sell Russia anything it needs. I suppose it could reduce its oil production, that would help Putin. Anyway, I like Argentina better as an example because Argentina is a customer for things Russia can sell and a source for a few things Russia needs. But Bahrain's position seems broadly similar: Ukrainian-friendly but not exerting itself at all. Feel free to inform me of aspects I've overlooked, of course.

jjgreen 5y ago

"The West", no? Which style-guide does the FT use?

999900000999 5y ago

This is a good reminder to step out of the US propaganda bubble. I make an effort to try get at least some of my news from outside of the West. I've seen a few Chinese news programs where they've made it abundantly clear, the power of American sanctions are waning, and China is not going to be pressured into doing what America wants. Our plans to cut China off from much of our advanced technology has only encouraged them to develop their own. You have chinese-made planes flying, phones which only use Chinese designed chips. As far as I can tell, China absolutely doesn't care what any other country does as long as it doesn't directly affect them. It wouldn't surprise me to see Putin speaking Chinese at a news conference, it looks like he's betting on them being the new dominant global power.

cmurf 5y ago
>absolutely doesn't care what any other country does as long as it doesn't directly affect them Taken literally, it means they are only an impediment to the U.N. Security Council's obligation to uphold the Charter. China remains only to have the veto, not because they actually care about their obligations to charter. The U.N. Charter is thus far the best thing humanity has invented to prevent another world war. If it's unwound, we're surely doomed to have another world war.
- 999900000999 5y ago
  What ? Did you forget when the US ignored the UN and invaded Iraq anyway ?
  - cmurf 5y ago
    Comparing either Ukraine to Iraq or U.S. to Russia is specious. US, UK and 29 other nations invaded Iraq. It wasn't unilateral. Russia's invasion is. Invading Iraq wasn't about territorial expansion or subjugation. Russia's invasion is. There were dozen UN resolutions against Iraq, including Res 1441 promising "very severe consequences" for continued non-compliance. I personally don't consider the invasion consistent with Article 51, but the argument can be made. It definitely cannot be made about Ukraine. Russia never once brought a complaint about Ukraine before the UN. Russia has made clear in peace talks they intend border expansion by insisting on recognition of Crimea, Donbas, Luhansk as Russia. It's a breach of the Budapest treaty Russia is a party to. And the Charter. The invasion of Iraq never stood a chance of starting WW3. This does.

sharken 5y ago

It is as if the article assumes that everyone is an American. As a European, I am very much aware that much of the world doesn't really care if Ukraine disappears from the map or not. At least does not care enough to implement sanctions. But of the countries that should absolutely be against Putins actions in Ukraine, everyone is onboard which is good to see. China, India or Brazil cannot be relied on to impose heavy sanctions on Russia and that is the way it is. The West can however impose sanctions on countries that actively supply Russia, but that is about it regarding what can be done. And the West can keep on trying to gain support, as i think most countries can see what Putin has done with Ukraine is plain wrong. China will want to do to Taiwan what Putin is doing to Ukraine, so they will naturally be cautious of condemning Russia in any way. And given the current state of affairs, it is unlikely that China will risk it and try to take Taiwan by force.

simonblack 5y ago

The 'International Community' you always hear about. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FOFo3TaagAEYvUa?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FOFo3TaagAEYvUa?format=jpg&name=...

sidibe 5y ago
Looks like the liberal democracies with strong institutions that people want to migrate to. Other countries have more to worry about than what's going on in Ukraine and aren't speaking up for Russia either