3 ms·

There are guidelines for what should be in menu bars, what order the items should be in, and how they should behave for different sorts of application. For exa

There are guidelines for what should be in menu bars, what order the items should be in, and how they should behave for different sorts of application. For example, on Mac: https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guidelines/macos/menus/menu-bar-menus/ https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guideline... And on Windows: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/uxguide/cmd-menus https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/uxguide/cmd-m... > "Where do I find the settings for this app?". Is it in File, Edit, View, Tools or Help? On Mac, it should be in the "App" menu and called "Preferences...", it should be the first item in the menu, except if you have an "About YourAppName" item which always goes at the top with a seperator underneath. On Windows, it should be in the "Tools" menu, and called "Options...". 4 On Linux, it should be under the "Edit" menu, and called "Preferences". If it's not, then the app (in my opinion) is broken. Of course, many apps are lazily ported across platforms or "hamburgerized". The Windows situation is obviously also more messy because of the newer "ribbon" standards complicating things a bit, but there are right answers. (edit: fixed links)

rezonant 5y ago
Of course there are ancient, rarely updated guidelines that almost all applications ignore. Microsoft indeed has that great guide, and yet their own applications implement it inconsistently, and often incorrectly according to the guidelines. Apple is a tad bit better, but third party apps rarely get it right. The best thing Apple has going for it is specifically on the question of where Settings is: there is a dedicated app menu, so it just makes logical sense to put Settings there. Or was it Preferences? Options. > On Linux, it should be under the "Edit" menu, and called "Preferences". This one is a stretch, there are no such consistent and agreed-upon guidelines. My point here is that just because things can be abused (or even, in the case of desktop applications, are almost _always_ abused), doesn't mean the general concept is useless or should be removed from applications. I would recommend instead of trying to cram a hundred possible actions into a tiny icon bar at the bottom of your iPhone, or removing 97 of those actions from the app itself and leaving just the most basic three down there, to maybe consider building a sensible and well-arranged menu layout _if and when_ you need more than those three that you can fit at the bottom.
- dmitriid 5y ago
  > Of course there are ancient, rarely updated guidelines You mean well researched guidelines with tons of evidence behind their decisions [1] that are as relevant today as they were 20 years ago. > almost all applications ignore. That most current applications ignore because people think they are ancient rarely updated guidelines. This is especially evident in the MacOS world. HIG were the guide on the platform, and developers tried to adhere to them. And then the new breed of "designers" took over and even Apple breaks nearly every single one of them [2] Microsoft has always been worse when it came to enforcing consistency of user interfaces, but even their choices were never random until quite recently [3]. [1] Apple's original HIG even had a bibliography section because it was actual research, and not some Dribble showcase: https://twitter.com/andy_matuschak/status/1447409175596699652 https://twitter.com/andy_matuschak/status/144740917559669965... and https://twitter.com/andy_matuschak/status/1447710247712280578 https://twitter.com/andy_matuschak/status/144771024771228057... etc. [2] See, e.g. their abomination of an App Store https://grumpy.website/post/0RsaxCu3P https://grumpy.website/post/0RsaxCu3P [3] Even the ribbon menus they introduced in Office weren't a random choice. They surely are now. See the Why the UI blog series: https://web.archive.org/web/20080316101025/http://blogs.msdn.com/jensenh/archive/tags/Why+the+New+UI_3F00_/default.aspx https://web.archive.org/web/20080316101025/http://blogs.msdn...
RMPR 5y ago
> For example, on Mac: https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guideline https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guideline... > And on Windows: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/uxguide/cmd-m https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/uxguide/cmd-m... Both links return 404.
- rezonant 5y ago
  Somehow that feels about right.
- wtetzner 5y ago
  They both work for me.
cornel_io 5y ago
Wait, there's a standard for ribbon menus??? I thought that was just a horrible failed experiment that drove a huge number of people away from the MS suite towards Google Docs and was abandoned...
- dmitriid 5y ago
  Originally it was a well-researched and executed concept, see https://web.archive.org/web/20080316101025/http://blogs.msdn.com/jensenh/archive/tags/Why+the+New+UI_3F00_/default.aspx https://web.archive.org/web/20080316101025/http://blogs.msdn... Nowadays it's just a random hodge-podge no one knows how to use properly.

rezonant 5y ago

Of course there are ancient, rarely updated guidelines that almost all applications ignore. Microsoft indeed has that great guide, and yet their own applications implement it inconsistently, and often incorrectly according to the guidelines. Apple is a tad bit better, but third party apps rarely get it right. The best thing Apple has going for it is specifically on the question of where Settings is: there is a dedicated app menu, so it just makes logical sense to put Settings there. Or was it Preferences? Options. > On Linux, it should be under the "Edit" menu, and called "Preferences". This one is a stretch, there are no such consistent and agreed-upon guidelines. My point here is that just because things can be abused (or even, in the case of desktop applications, are almost _always_ abused), doesn't mean the general concept is useless or should be removed from applications. I would recommend instead of trying to cram a hundred possible actions into a tiny icon bar at the bottom of your iPhone, or removing 97 of those actions from the app itself and leaving just the most basic three down there, to maybe consider building a sensible and well-arranged menu layout _if and when_ you need more than those three that you can fit at the bottom.

dmitriid 5y ago
> Of course there are ancient, rarely updated guidelines You mean well researched guidelines with tons of evidence behind their decisions [1] that are as relevant today as they were 20 years ago. > almost all applications ignore. That most current applications ignore because people think they are ancient rarely updated guidelines. This is especially evident in the MacOS world. HIG were the guide on the platform, and developers tried to adhere to them. And then the new breed of "designers" took over and even Apple breaks nearly every single one of them [2] Microsoft has always been worse when it came to enforcing consistency of user interfaces, but even their choices were never random until quite recently [3]. [1] Apple's original HIG even had a bibliography section because it was actual research, and not some Dribble showcase: https://twitter.com/andy_matuschak/status/1447409175596699652 https://twitter.com/andy_matuschak/status/144740917559669965... and https://twitter.com/andy_matuschak/status/1447710247712280578 https://twitter.com/andy_matuschak/status/144771024771228057... etc. [2] See, e.g. their abomination of an App Store https://grumpy.website/post/0RsaxCu3P https://grumpy.website/post/0RsaxCu3P [3] Even the ribbon menus they introduced in Office weren't a random choice. They surely are now. See the Why the UI blog series: https://web.archive.org/web/20080316101025/http://blogs.msdn.com/jensenh/archive/tags/Why+the+New+UI_3F00_/default.aspx https://web.archive.org/web/20080316101025/http://blogs.msdn...

RMPR 5y ago

> For example, on Mac: https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guideline https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guideline... > And on Windows: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/uxguide/cmd-m https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/uxguide/cmd-m... Both links return 404.

rezonant 5y ago
Somehow that feels about right.
wtetzner 5y ago
They both work for me.

cornel_io 5y ago

Wait, there's a standard for ribbon menus??? I thought that was just a horrible failed experiment that drove a huge number of people away from the MS suite towards Google Docs and was abandoned...

dmitriid 5y ago
Originally it was a well-researched and executed concept, see https://web.archive.org/web/20080316101025/http://blogs.msdn.com/jensenh/archive/tags/Why+the+New+UI_3F00_/default.aspx https://web.archive.org/web/20080316101025/http://blogs.msdn... Nowadays it's just a random hodge-podge no one knows how to use properly.