12 ms·

I don’t understand why this is being posted now, nor why it’s trending. There are far more up-to-date sources to be found. Human rights should not be a debate

raffraffraff 5y ago
Isn't it about clashing rights?
david38 5y ago
Almost by definition a “human right” is debated because it’s based on time and culture. It used to mean the right to be alive, then freedom from slavery was added, then access to food. Shelter isn’t even an established right, what makes you think wanting to be treated differently from how you used to be would be? What about access to sex? Internet? A car? Mass transit?
rainonmoon 5y ago
A British former TV writer who became a very prominent transphobe years ago was just interviewed and claims to have had his life ruined as a consequence of publicly vilifying a vulnerable segment of society. Be prepared for a new wave of anti-trans sentiment wherever you get your content as new people take up his ridiculous crusade.
- raffraffraff 5y ago
  His life is ruined because of how he is online, as much as what his crusade was. While most people who spoke up for sex-based rights "buttoned it" when they were piled on and called TERFs, he decided the only way to clear his name was to fight the battle, but he found himself without many allies because he can be so toxic. He drove away his own friends and called people out on Twitter for not backing him up. However, while I say "this is as much about him as it is about his crusade", he behaved the same way during the Irish abortion campaign (he was for abortion rights btw) and Gamergate. The reason he wasn't "ruined" back then was because the trans rights issue is far more toxic. Nobody is allowed question the current narrative.
  - fzeroracer 5y ago
    The idea that 'no one is allowed to question the current narrative' is rather absurd, considering I live in a state which has openly investigated and harassed families with transgender kids. The reason why the debate is 'far more toxic' is because there are places which are outright attacking and removing rights of transgender individuals. Naturally this means people are going to be far more defensive because they don't want to be marked as less-than-human.
    - Ourgon 5y ago
      - fzeroracer 5y ago
        Again, this is objectively false. I live in a state which has been actively removing the rights of and harassing transgender individuals. This is not something that's up for debate. To say that 'nobody is removing rights for those who want to live as the other sex' is to deny reality.
        Ourgon 5y ago
        What state, and which rights are being removed? Give us some pointers to the laws related to those rights which are being removed. If you can show proof that men and women who want to live as the opposite sex are granted fewer rights than others I will concede your point.
    - raffraffraff 5y ago
      I think this all very much depends on where you live. For example, the UK only introduced the Gender Recognition Act in 2004, and that law still stands. The UK doesn't have self-ID, but there are plans to update the GRA to include it. This is very much in line with what trans activists want. The problem with self-ID is that it necessarily clashes with existing sex-based protections in the Equality Act, and whether you agree with women's rights or trans rights or both, these contradictions need to be discussed. The problem is that the discussion is enough to get you piled-on, blocked, fired etc.
- throwaway378037 5y ago
  I haven’t seen that but I’d bet money on who it is, he’s such a prat
jsnodlin 5y ago
algebra-pretext 5y ago
It shocks me how many low-quality, misinformed comments are allowed to stay in this thread. It’s not hard to understand the difference of gender vs. sex. People think it’s fine to publicly harass and harm someone because their existence confuses them. Language like this is why I have friends who can’t step out the house to do something as simple as grocery shopping without something humiliating happening to them. It wasn’t nearly this bad before, and it’s getting worse as this topic becomes more heated. There is a terrible war happening right now, but people are instead obsessed with making others feel as ashamed as possible for their existence.
- boppo1 5y ago
  I think a lot of us on the terf side of the debate have no intention of publicly harassing or harming anyone. We just don't think trans women are the same as women, and the differences ought to be respected by sports, family locker rooms, etc.
  - thr407891 5y ago
    Leaving aside the question of sports, do you really not see how banning someone who looks feminine from women's restrooms would cause awkwardness or discomfort for that person? If a transgender women is being abused by her male partner, you think that she should be barred from any women's resources or support groups even though she is going through the very situation that these resources were designed for? Also, what about trans men. Do you feel comfortable with a bunch of bearded men with deep voices in the women's facilities? Or, do you instead think by some sort of double standard that trans men are men but trans women are not women? I'm sorry, but unless you can answer these questions reasonably then your claim that you have no intention of harming anyone doesn't hold up.
    - croonerisms 5y ago
Pinegulf 5y ago
I'd assume this is due to recent news: US supreme court nominee Ketanji Brown Jackson can't define 'Woman': https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/23/us/politics/ketanji-brown-jackson-woman-definition.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/23/us/politics/ketanji-brown... Lia Thomas breaks women's records and nearest swimmer by 38 seconds: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10282301/Transgender-UPenn-swimmer-Lia-Thomas-smashes-records-weekend-meets-14-SECONDS-ahead-rival.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10282301/Transgende...
- fxtentacle 5y ago
  That must be so frustrating for those women who now see that they have no chance due to genetics. I'm surprised that having male bone density isn't considered "doping" if you compete as a female.
  - Ourgon 5y ago
  - technobabbler 5y ago
    Isn't there always going to be someone better due to genetics? As a cis man, I know that even if I trained 24/7 with the world's best trainers, I'd never be as good a runner as some Kenyan dude or as good a basketball player as a tall and lanky dude. I have no chance due to genetics, even though I have a male body. It's not like humans were made equally. Each body has genetic advantages and disadvantages, and your early childhood nutrition permanently changes your athletic potential too. You can't exactly level the playing field to begin with. Why don't these sports have brackets instead of gender divides? Is a biological man/woman divide really the most useful distinguisher between athletes?
    - technobabbler 5y ago
      I guess for context, I just don't get the brouhaha. I am fairly active and tremendously enjoy several sports, even though I'm no good at them despite years of training and effort. A large part of it may be genetics. These are just hobbies and games. Professionally, doing what I do for work, I'm also mediocre at best. There are people more intelligent than me, better communicators than me, more ambitious than me, more focused than me. Some of that is genetics too, though harder to tease apart. So what? We don't know the upper limits of human potential, especially the environmental and epigenetic contributors that keep producing better and better athletes and thinkers. We're not static chess pieces with finite moves, but constantly evolving animals whose body plans keep adapting to new conditions as they arise and work to our advantage. You can slice and dice a million humans into subgroups and there are always going to be statistical clumps, much of which is genetic. But so what? Why is that such a big deal for concern? If the goal is to tease out the absolute best, only a no holds barred competition (with or without doping) can reveal that, and the competitors will likely get better over time. Anything else is just a handicap made for spectacle and entertainment, so why does it matter HOW you bracket? Why is the sex bracketing more important than race or weight or height or mental ability or leg strength or whatever other distinguisher? Humans never were equal to begin with.
slightwinder 5y ago
> Human rights should not be a debate Human Rights were made by humans. They are not natural, nor given by god. They emerged from the suffering of people and debates. Thus, we MUST debate them, especially when new aspect appear, and we must adapt our views to a new world. And debates also serve for learning. People learn the reasoning, the history and the deeper implications of something through debate. And regarding human rights this today is more than necessary. Just look at how the peoples are acting today, on social networks, twitter, in debates. They all know the humans rights and take them for granted, yet openly violate and break them, because they don't understand them and just focus on their own single-minded ideology. Especially in the last two years with the pandemia and now the war this became very visible. Thus, we do need far more debates about those things again. Every generation need to debate it anew to understand it.

raffraffraff 5y ago

Isn't it about clashing rights?

david38 5y ago

Almost by definition a “human right” is debated because it’s based on time and culture. It used to mean the right to be alive, then freedom from slavery was added, then access to food. Shelter isn’t even an established right, what makes you think wanting to be treated differently from how you used to be would be? What about access to sex? Internet? A car? Mass transit?

rainonmoon 5y ago

A British former TV writer who became a very prominent transphobe years ago was just interviewed and claims to have had his life ruined as a consequence of publicly vilifying a vulnerable segment of society. Be prepared for a new wave of anti-trans sentiment wherever you get your content as new people take up his ridiculous crusade.

raffraffraff 5y ago
His life is ruined because of how he is online, as much as what his crusade was. While most people who spoke up for sex-based rights "buttoned it" when they were piled on and called TERFs, he decided the only way to clear his name was to fight the battle, but he found himself without many allies because he can be so toxic. He drove away his own friends and called people out on Twitter for not backing him up. However, while I say "this is as much about him as it is about his crusade", he behaved the same way during the Irish abortion campaign (he was for abortion rights btw) and Gamergate. The reason he wasn't "ruined" back then was because the trans rights issue is far more toxic. Nobody is allowed question the current narrative.
- fzeroracer 5y ago
  The idea that 'no one is allowed to question the current narrative' is rather absurd, considering I live in a state which has openly investigated and harassed families with transgender kids. The reason why the debate is 'far more toxic' is because there are places which are outright attacking and removing rights of transgender individuals. Naturally this means people are going to be far more defensive because they don't want to be marked as less-than-human.
  - Ourgon 5y ago
    - fzeroracer 5y ago
      Again, this is objectively false. I live in a state which has been actively removing the rights of and harassing transgender individuals. This is not something that's up for debate. To say that 'nobody is removing rights for those who want to live as the other sex' is to deny reality.
      - Ourgon 5y ago
        What state, and which rights are being removed? Give us some pointers to the laws related to those rights which are being removed. If you can show proof that men and women who want to live as the opposite sex are granted fewer rights than others I will concede your point.
  - raffraffraff 5y ago
    I think this all very much depends on where you live. For example, the UK only introduced the Gender Recognition Act in 2004, and that law still stands. The UK doesn't have self-ID, but there are plans to update the GRA to include it. This is very much in line with what trans activists want. The problem with self-ID is that it necessarily clashes with existing sex-based protections in the Equality Act, and whether you agree with women's rights or trans rights or both, these contradictions need to be discussed. The problem is that the discussion is enough to get you piled-on, blocked, fired etc.
throwaway378037 5y ago
I haven’t seen that but I’d bet money on who it is, he’s such a prat

jsnodlin 5y ago

algebra-pretext 5y ago

It shocks me how many low-quality, misinformed comments are allowed to stay in this thread. It’s not hard to understand the difference of gender vs. sex. People think it’s fine to publicly harass and harm someone because their existence confuses them. Language like this is why I have friends who can’t step out the house to do something as simple as grocery shopping without something humiliating happening to them. It wasn’t nearly this bad before, and it’s getting worse as this topic becomes more heated. There is a terrible war happening right now, but people are instead obsessed with making others feel as ashamed as possible for their existence.

boppo1 5y ago
I think a lot of us on the terf side of the debate have no intention of publicly harassing or harming anyone. We just don't think trans women are the same as women, and the differences ought to be respected by sports, family locker rooms, etc.
- thr407891 5y ago
  Leaving aside the question of sports, do you really not see how banning someone who looks feminine from women's restrooms would cause awkwardness or discomfort for that person? If a transgender women is being abused by her male partner, you think that she should be barred from any women's resources or support groups even though she is going through the very situation that these resources were designed for? Also, what about trans men. Do you feel comfortable with a bunch of bearded men with deep voices in the women's facilities? Or, do you instead think by some sort of double standard that trans men are men but trans women are not women? I'm sorry, but unless you can answer these questions reasonably then your claim that you have no intention of harming anyone doesn't hold up.
  - croonerisms 5y ago

Pinegulf 5y ago

I'd assume this is due to recent news: US supreme court nominee Ketanji Brown Jackson can't define 'Woman': https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/23/us/politics/ketanji-brown-jackson-woman-definition.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/23/us/politics/ketanji-brown... Lia Thomas breaks women's records and nearest swimmer by 38 seconds: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10282301/Transgender-UPenn-swimmer-Lia-Thomas-smashes-records-weekend-meets-14-SECONDS-ahead-rival.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10282301/Transgende...

fxtentacle 5y ago
That must be so frustrating for those women who now see that they have no chance due to genetics. I'm surprised that having male bone density isn't considered "doping" if you compete as a female.
- Ourgon 5y ago
- technobabbler 5y ago
  Isn't there always going to be someone better due to genetics? As a cis man, I know that even if I trained 24/7 with the world's best trainers, I'd never be as good a runner as some Kenyan dude or as good a basketball player as a tall and lanky dude. I have no chance due to genetics, even though I have a male body. It's not like humans were made equally. Each body has genetic advantages and disadvantages, and your early childhood nutrition permanently changes your athletic potential too. You can't exactly level the playing field to begin with. Why don't these sports have brackets instead of gender divides? Is a biological man/woman divide really the most useful distinguisher between athletes?
  - technobabbler 5y ago
    I guess for context, I just don't get the brouhaha. I am fairly active and tremendously enjoy several sports, even though I'm no good at them despite years of training and effort. A large part of it may be genetics. These are just hobbies and games. Professionally, doing what I do for work, I'm also mediocre at best. There are people more intelligent than me, better communicators than me, more ambitious than me, more focused than me. Some of that is genetics too, though harder to tease apart. So what? We don't know the upper limits of human potential, especially the environmental and epigenetic contributors that keep producing better and better athletes and thinkers. We're not static chess pieces with finite moves, but constantly evolving animals whose body plans keep adapting to new conditions as they arise and work to our advantage. You can slice and dice a million humans into subgroups and there are always going to be statistical clumps, much of which is genetic. But so what? Why is that such a big deal for concern? If the goal is to tease out the absolute best, only a no holds barred competition (with or without doping) can reveal that, and the competitors will likely get better over time. Anything else is just a handicap made for spectacle and entertainment, so why does it matter HOW you bracket? Why is the sex bracketing more important than race or weight or height or mental ability or leg strength or whatever other distinguisher? Humans never were equal to begin with.

slightwinder 5y ago

> Human rights should not be a debate Human Rights were made by humans. They are not natural, nor given by god. They emerged from the suffering of people and debates. Thus, we MUST debate them, especially when new aspect appear, and we must adapt our views to a new world. And debates also serve for learning. People learn the reasoning, the history and the deeper implications of something through debate. And regarding human rights this today is more than necessary. Just look at how the peoples are acting today, on social networks, twitter, in debates. They all know the humans rights and take them for granted, yet openly violate and break them, because they don't understand them and just focus on their own single-minded ideology. Especially in the last two years with the pandemia and now the war this became very visible. Thus, we do need far more debates about those things again. Every generation need to debate it anew to understand it.