5 ms·

> We debate these things because some people say "I feel X" and others say "You aren't allowed to feel that way and here is how we will marginalize you for that

by azth 5y ago

> We debate these things because some people say "I feel X" and others say "You aren't allowed to feel that way and here is how we will marginalize you for that". Sounds like a straw man fallacy. Some people are saying "I feel like such and such", and the others are saying "you have a mental condition, let's seek medical treatment".

dwaltrip 5y ago
Being gay used to be considered a medical condition, but now everyone agrees that was a huge mistake. We should tread carefully here. Maybe there are genuine disorders affecting some aspects of the less commonly found gender / identity phenomena. I'm not an expert. I don't know. I'm guessing you aren't either. I'd prefer to error on the side of respecting the way someone feels if they aren't hurting anyone or imposing a large burden.
- pcmoney 5y ago
  I would say hormone blockers in prepubescent teens without parental consent is not treading lightly. The de-transition community on reddit and Twitter can more concretely explain and show the harm being done under the desire to be blindly supportive and affirming.
  - fzeroracer 5y ago
    Hormone blockers in prepubescent teens has been used for decades before transgender people had the option available. It was frequently used to treat people going through early puberty. We know how safe and effective they are because we have a whole body of scientific literature around people being on hormone blockers for 5-6+ years. It's only as a result of the fear around transgender people that this is causing problems and, as usual, it also affects cisgender children because they issue blanket bans on treatments.
    - pcmoney 5y ago
      On a case by case basis, sure. However we are seeing a mass psychosis around trans identity in middle school. The rates of middle school girls identifying as something other than CIS are reaching levels as high as 40% in some school districts. Maybe that is not a problem for some but that will be a problem for society in about a generation.
      - Jim_Heckler 5y ago
        > The rates of middle school girls identifying as something other than CIS are reaching levels as high as 40% in some school districts. > Maybe that is not a problem for some but that will be a problem for society in about a generation. Why will that be a problem for society?
        azth 5y ago
        It's easy to look at all the forums where people regretted what they did. These fads are not reversible, and when people grow out of them, as many are, there will be ill effects on society.
        pcmoney 5y ago
        Bluntly society exists to serve current and future generations. All future generations are predicated on a nuclear family. No significantly large human cultures without a basis around a nuclear family have survived from an evolutionary perspective. For society to continue to exist it needs to primarily serve and be determined by people who meet, have kids, and form a nuclear family. While there are societies that do not do this they do not last more than a generation or two at the most. While good societies should be inclusive and welcoming of non paired or alternative lifestyles they by definition need to remain alternative for society to continue to flourish or else the society dies as its members do. We already have a birth rate below replacement rate. Societies where that is the trend typically do not last long either and have some fairly bad outcomes while they disappear.
  - dwaltrip 5y ago
    Yeah I agree that hormone blockers in teens is not an action to take lightly (my understanding is that it is not reversible). I don’t have a ton of knowledge on it, but it seems we should be careful with that.
    - mensetmanusman 5y ago
      Note that there is no ethical way to determine if hormone blockers on children are nonreversible due to the known long term possible side effects of any medication.
- azth 5y ago
  > but now everyone agrees that was a huge mistake Citation needed. Not everyone agrees. > Maybe there are genuine disorders affecting some aspects of the less commonly found gender / identity phenomena. I'm not an expert. I don't know. I'm guessing you aren't either. You don't have to be an expert to see the parallels between this and any other fad we've seen before, such as hipsters and goths and emos and punks. > I'd prefer to error on the side of respecting the way someone feels We're witnessing postmodernism today, where everything is relative, and no absolute truths exist anymore. What you mentioned is a symptom of that way of thinking.
  - dwaltrip 5y ago
    Oh hey, it’s you from the other thread. You never explained to me why you think evolution is false :) Morality is an evolved trait. It doesn’t come from a god, so that’s why don’t need to worry that a religious book tells you ”being gay is wrong”.
    - azth 5y ago
      We have an intrinsic sense of morality by means of what Islam calls "Fitrah" - the natural disposition which God instilled in us. This is why people are naturally inclined to believe in The Creator. This does not mean that the Fitrah cannot be concealed and/or corrupted. A lot of society today still has remnants and fragments of Truths from the previous Messages. In the West, this manifests through the remnants of Truth from Judaism and Christianity, even though they have been corrupted, generally speaking. Once we establish, through proof and evidence, the True message from God, then it is only rational to obey and submit (e.g. see https://www.provingislam.com/ https://www.provingislam.com/). What is wrong, or why something is wrong may not be immediately apparent to us. As long as God ordained it, we would be irrational not to obey.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    - mensetmanusman 5y ago
      “ Morality is an evolved trait. “ This is one of many opinions. In a diverse society it’s better not to speak in absolutes, lest you fall for the relativistic trap of ‘there is no absolute truth except this sentence’.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

by azth 5y ago

dwaltrip 5y ago

Being gay used to be considered a medical condition, but now everyone agrees that was a huge mistake. We should tread carefully here. Maybe there are genuine disorders affecting some aspects of the less commonly found gender / identity phenomena. I'm not an expert. I don't know. I'm guessing you aren't either. I'd prefer to error on the side of respecting the way someone feels if they aren't hurting anyone or imposing a large burden.

pcmoney 5y ago
I would say hormone blockers in prepubescent teens without parental consent is not treading lightly. The de-transition community on reddit and Twitter can more concretely explain and show the harm being done under the desire to be blindly supportive and affirming.
- fzeroracer 5y ago
  Hormone blockers in prepubescent teens has been used for decades before transgender people had the option available. It was frequently used to treat people going through early puberty. We know how safe and effective they are because we have a whole body of scientific literature around people being on hormone blockers for 5-6+ years. It's only as a result of the fear around transgender people that this is causing problems and, as usual, it also affects cisgender children because they issue blanket bans on treatments.
  - pcmoney 5y ago
    On a case by case basis, sure. However we are seeing a mass psychosis around trans identity in middle school. The rates of middle school girls identifying as something other than CIS are reaching levels as high as 40% in some school districts. Maybe that is not a problem for some but that will be a problem for society in about a generation.
    - Jim_Heckler 5y ago
      > The rates of middle school girls identifying as something other than CIS are reaching levels as high as 40% in some school districts. > Maybe that is not a problem for some but that will be a problem for society in about a generation. Why will that be a problem for society?
      - azth 5y ago
        It's easy to look at all the forums where people regretted what they did. These fads are not reversible, and when people grow out of them, as many are, there will be ill effects on society.
      - pcmoney 5y ago
        Bluntly society exists to serve current and future generations. All future generations are predicated on a nuclear family. No significantly large human cultures without a basis around a nuclear family have survived from an evolutionary perspective. For society to continue to exist it needs to primarily serve and be determined by people who meet, have kids, and form a nuclear family. While there are societies that do not do this they do not last more than a generation or two at the most. While good societies should be inclusive and welcoming of non paired or alternative lifestyles they by definition need to remain alternative for society to continue to flourish or else the society dies as its members do. We already have a birth rate below replacement rate. Societies where that is the trend typically do not last long either and have some fairly bad outcomes while they disappear.
- dwaltrip 5y ago
  Yeah I agree that hormone blockers in teens is not an action to take lightly (my understanding is that it is not reversible). I don’t have a ton of knowledge on it, but it seems we should be careful with that.
  - mensetmanusman 5y ago
    Note that there is no ethical way to determine if hormone blockers on children are nonreversible due to the known long term possible side effects of any medication.
azth 5y ago
> but now everyone agrees that was a huge mistake Citation needed. Not everyone agrees. > Maybe there are genuine disorders affecting some aspects of the less commonly found gender / identity phenomena. I'm not an expert. I don't know. I'm guessing you aren't either. You don't have to be an expert to see the parallels between this and any other fad we've seen before, such as hipsters and goths and emos and punks. > I'd prefer to error on the side of respecting the way someone feels We're witnessing postmodernism today, where everything is relative, and no absolute truths exist anymore. What you mentioned is a symptom of that way of thinking.
- dwaltrip 5y ago
  Oh hey, it’s you from the other thread. You never explained to me why you think evolution is false :) Morality is an evolved trait. It doesn’t come from a god, so that’s why don’t need to worry that a religious book tells you ”being gay is wrong”.
  - azth 5y ago
    We have an intrinsic sense of morality by means of what Islam calls "Fitrah" - the natural disposition which God instilled in us. This is why people are naturally inclined to believe in The Creator. This does not mean that the Fitrah cannot be concealed and/or corrupted. A lot of society today still has remnants and fragments of Truths from the previous Messages. In the West, this manifests through the remnants of Truth from Judaism and Christianity, even though they have been corrupted, generally speaking. Once we establish, through proof and evidence, the True message from God, then it is only rational to obey and submit (e.g. see https://www.provingislam.com/ https://www.provingislam.com/). What is wrong, or why something is wrong may not be immediately apparent to us. As long as God ordained it, we would be irrational not to obey.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - mensetmanusman 5y ago
    “ Morality is an evolved trait. “ This is one of many opinions. In a diverse society it’s better not to speak in absolutes, lest you fall for the relativistic trap of ‘there is no absolute truth except this sentence’.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]