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Thanks for sharing this it’s helpful. A quick look shows that in most states the % of what the local school would get is high. It’s still fundamentally a progra

by TimPC 5y ago

Thanks for sharing this it’s helpful. A quick look shows that in most states the % of what the local school would get is high. It’s still fundamentally a program that makes a lot of assumptions that low cost students cost more than they actually do. I’m glad to see additional funds for special needs kids but the distribution seems flatter than reality. The kids with a special needs assistant aren’t getting the full cost of that assistant more on the voucher and the kids without a special needs assistant are getting some portion of the cost of providing for special needs kids in theirs.

hnburnsy 5y ago
So your argument and basis for calling vouchers a Scam is because the dollar amount for the voucher is not granular enough? Maybe the dollar allocation could be better, but it doesn't make vouchers a scam. If you'd like more confirmation in your beliefs may I direct you here... https://dianeravitch.net/ https://dianeravitch.net/ IMO, vouchers have a place in school choice and I would prefer that they are used to give disabled, disadvantaged, and hard to educate children more options. I am a bigger fan of open enrollment and charter schools as zip code\housing affordability should not dictate a child's educational destiny.
- TimPC 5y ago
  Yes. Vouchers are a scam if the dollar amount is insufficiently granular in ways that benefit those taking them at the expense of those who don’t. Most voucher programs aren’t targeting or benefiting any of the groups you highlight as the granularity of the funds is biased against them. I’m personally against open enrolment as I think it creates a prisoner’s dilemma race to the bottom where districts worsen their education system to provide tax relief knowing their students can enrol in neighbouring systems. Of course if the neighbouring systems follow their incentives to do the same the net result is a gutting of the education system. I emphasize with the idea of providing more broader access to good systems I just think the mechanism to do so has to protect the incentives to make the systems good.
  - hnburnsy 5y ago
    >I’m personally against open enrolment as I think it creates a prisoner’s dilemma race to the bottom where districts worsen their education system to provide tax relief knowing their students can enrol in neighbouring systems. In my state with OE, I've seen district schools add phonics, world languages, Cambridge, IB, etc, to compete with neighboring districts. > I emphasize with the idea of providing more broader access to good systems I just think the mechanism to do so has to protect the incentives to make the systems good. When your child is finishing third grade and you finally realize the curriculum at your district school is lacking you might not have the luxury of waiting for the "good systems" to arrive.
    - TimPC 5y ago
      Are you in part of the majority of the US where the bulk of education funding comes from local taxpayers in the form of property taxes? It’s the combination of that funding mechanism with OE that I view as dangerous. If you’re in one of the parts where the large majority of the costs come from state and federal funds it may work better. For what it’s worth in my province (state-equivalent) we fund schools entirely through income tax at the provincial and federal level so the funding for schools is completely independent of property values. Good neighborhoods still have better schools for complex reasons but those better schools don’t have funding advantages over the worse ones.
    - TimPC 5y ago
      I suppose the other possibility is the program might be designed in a way that each kid child being educated in a neighbouring district comes with a transfer of tax funds. If the transfer is larger than necessary to educate the child then districts would be interested in competing for students and will make quality improvements to do so. I may revisit my position on OE based on this. I am coming around to the idea that well designed OE programs could work. I think the “well designed” is key though as poorly designed programs can do a lot of harm by lowering the quality of education across the board.

by TimPC 5y ago

hnburnsy 5y ago

So your argument and basis for calling vouchers a Scam is because the dollar amount for the voucher is not granular enough? Maybe the dollar allocation could be better, but it doesn't make vouchers a scam. If you'd like more confirmation in your beliefs may I direct you here... https://dianeravitch.net/ https://dianeravitch.net/ IMO, vouchers have a place in school choice and I would prefer that they are used to give disabled, disadvantaged, and hard to educate children more options. I am a bigger fan of open enrollment and charter schools as zip code\housing affordability should not dictate a child's educational destiny.

TimPC 5y ago
Yes. Vouchers are a scam if the dollar amount is insufficiently granular in ways that benefit those taking them at the expense of those who don’t. Most voucher programs aren’t targeting or benefiting any of the groups you highlight as the granularity of the funds is biased against them. I’m personally against open enrolment as I think it creates a prisoner’s dilemma race to the bottom where districts worsen their education system to provide tax relief knowing their students can enrol in neighbouring systems. Of course if the neighbouring systems follow their incentives to do the same the net result is a gutting of the education system. I emphasize with the idea of providing more broader access to good systems I just think the mechanism to do so has to protect the incentives to make the systems good.
- hnburnsy 5y ago
  >I’m personally against open enrolment as I think it creates a prisoner’s dilemma race to the bottom where districts worsen their education system to provide tax relief knowing their students can enrol in neighbouring systems. In my state with OE, I've seen district schools add phonics, world languages, Cambridge, IB, etc, to compete with neighboring districts. > I emphasize with the idea of providing more broader access to good systems I just think the mechanism to do so has to protect the incentives to make the systems good. When your child is finishing third grade and you finally realize the curriculum at your district school is lacking you might not have the luxury of waiting for the "good systems" to arrive.
  - TimPC 5y ago
    Are you in part of the majority of the US where the bulk of education funding comes from local taxpayers in the form of property taxes? It’s the combination of that funding mechanism with OE that I view as dangerous. If you’re in one of the parts where the large majority of the costs come from state and federal funds it may work better. For what it’s worth in my province (state-equivalent) we fund schools entirely through income tax at the provincial and federal level so the funding for schools is completely independent of property values. Good neighborhoods still have better schools for complex reasons but those better schools don’t have funding advantages over the worse ones.
  - TimPC 5y ago
    I suppose the other possibility is the program might be designed in a way that each kid child being educated in a neighbouring district comes with a transfer of tax funds. If the transfer is larger than necessary to educate the child then districts would be interested in competing for students and will make quality improvements to do so. I may revisit my position on OE based on this. I am coming around to the idea that well designed OE programs could work. I think the “well designed” is key though as poorly designed programs can do a lot of harm by lowering the quality of education across the board.