5 ms·

> We debate these things because some people say "I feel X" and others say "You aren't allowed to feel that way and here is how we will marginalize you for that

> We debate these things because some people say "I feel X" and others say "You aren't allowed to feel that way and here is how we will marginalize you for that". Talk about missing the plot. This is 100% incorrect and not at all what the debate is about. No cares how anyone feels, people can feel any way they want, this is not the complaint. The issue is “I believe I am <gender>, and I demand you treat me as <gender>, and also demand that you also agree that I not only feel like <gender>, but that I actually am <gender>.” Yeah, sorry no that isn’t how biology works. It’s also selfish and narcissistic to demand everyone else partake in your self perception. Demanding everyone use your “pronouns” is just as silly if I demanded that everyone use the adjectives “strong and handsome” when they refer to me because that is how I feel and perceive myself. Having my own adjectives is extremely pompous, and so is having your own pronouns. You can feel however you want that’s fine, but you don’t get demand every else in the world must take part in your self perception and compel their speech and behavior to do so.

dwaltrip 5y ago
See my comment to your sibling: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30797059 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30797059 Equating gender / identity phenomena with wanting to be considered "strong and handsome" is not very... charitable. The whole pronoun thing is massively overblown from what I've seen. Very, very, very few people are asking for unusual pronouns. Calling someone "they / their" is not hard. I live in LA and only come across someone asking once or twice. It's not a big deal. For what it is worth, I sort of agree with you on the unusual pronouns. I'm not sure what I would do if someone asked me to call them some pronoun I've never heard of. I'm usually pretty agreeable, so I would try to be polite. But it would probably weird me out a bit. However, I don't even know if I will ever face this scenario. I'm not too worried about it :)
- xdennis 5y ago
  - dwaltrip 5y ago
    You haven’t made an argument for why you think it is a lie. It would be helpful if you did that.
    - pcmoney 5y ago
      I dont think it is a lie if everyone’s truth is “equal” but I also dont think my preferences should be able to control others speech, even though I personally don’t mind using preferred pronouns. Even if offense was intended, you don’t tend to get jail time for insulting someone.
      - fzeroracer 5y ago
        We already do this in our every day life. If you talk to someone named Johnny and repeatedly call them John against their wishes (perhaps they just hate that shorthand name for whatever reason), you're likely going to get them to a point where it agitates them. And if you keep doing so at work it'll likely get you fired.
        pcmoney 5y ago
        Sure but getting fired/agitating someone is different than the government putting me in prison for words.
  - a_shovel 5y ago
    Your source is a site solely dedicated to anti-transgender propaganda. Every second headline on the front page is "transgender person commits crime". The headline for this article even invents the unwieldy term "Male Who Identifies as Female" so that it can avoid saying "Trans Woman," presumably because it would be too respectful of her. I wasn't able to find a better source than this, presumably because "Man Jailed 21 Days, Fined For Harassing Woman In Street" isn't the kind of headline to make international news (and I don't speak Norwegian).
devwastaken 5y ago
Transgenderism is the treatment to dysphoria. Dysphoria is a condition that is just as demonstrably provable as depression or any other mental illness. If you were to wake up tomorrow in the wrong body you would also have dysphoria, and you would also try to treat that. Humans are not some machines of perfect logical emotions and reasoning - you are no exception. On the contrary, it's narcissistic and selfish to think everyone has to be you, someone whom doesn't have dysphoria. That you are somehow the arbiter of what gender is. From what source is your knowledge based? I used to think things were defined in books and by experts, turns out we know jack about humans, all we can really know is by experiencing them, and I can tell you first hand dysphoria is enough for good people to kill themselves. So, think on why that is, and look to the truth for an answer.
- fenderbluesjr 5y ago
  Saying transgenderism is the treatment to dysphoria is itself an extremely controversial statement and not one you can present as as a pillar of any argument. There is a contingent that _don't want_ anything other than transgenderism to be the solution to dysphoria, because it would put a lot of question marks over the accepted dogma. This was previously on the WPATH Wikipedia page but has since been removed: In 2021, WPATH's President-Elect, Marci Bowers called the association intolerant of dissenting opinions. She said, "There are definitely people who are trying to keep out anyone who doesn't absolutely buy the party line that everything should be affirming, and that there's no room for dissent."
  - devwastaken 5y ago
    It's not controversial, and the vast majority of transgender individuals belong to no orgs nor follow them. They're just people that are looking for solutions. There is always going to be political organizations using people and muddying the narrative for clout.
- hitpointdrew 5y ago
  > Transgenderism is the treatment to dysphoria. It's not a "treatment" at all. By definition a treatment (in this context) is: `The use of an agent, procedure, or regimen, such as a drug, surgery, or exercise, in an attempt to cure or mitigate a disease, condition, or injury.` Transgenderism is the rejection of any treatments, and an insistence there is no disease, condition, or injury. > On the contrary, it's narcissistic and selfish to think everyone has to be you I never claimed this. That said, if you want to have any useful discussions and dialog there has to be an agreement on things like definitions and facts. Otherwise communication is completely a useless endeavor. > That you are somehow the arbiter of what gender is. Again, never claimed I am somehow solely the arbiter or what gender is. >From what source is your knowledge based? From 1,000's of years of human history and language of people classifying biological sex. Also, just having common sense and the ability to do basic reasoning.

dwaltrip 5y ago

See my comment to your sibling: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30797059 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30797059 Equating gender / identity phenomena with wanting to be considered "strong and handsome" is not very... charitable. The whole pronoun thing is massively overblown from what I've seen. Very, very, very few people are asking for unusual pronouns. Calling someone "they / their" is not hard. I live in LA and only come across someone asking once or twice. It's not a big deal. For what it is worth, I sort of agree with you on the unusual pronouns. I'm not sure what I would do if someone asked me to call them some pronoun I've never heard of. I'm usually pretty agreeable, so I would try to be polite. But it would probably weird me out a bit. However, I don't even know if I will ever face this scenario. I'm not too worried about it :)

xdennis 5y ago
- dwaltrip 5y ago
  You haven’t made an argument for why you think it is a lie. It would be helpful if you did that.
  - pcmoney 5y ago
    I dont think it is a lie if everyone’s truth is “equal” but I also dont think my preferences should be able to control others speech, even though I personally don’t mind using preferred pronouns. Even if offense was intended, you don’t tend to get jail time for insulting someone.
    - fzeroracer 5y ago
      We already do this in our every day life. If you talk to someone named Johnny and repeatedly call them John against their wishes (perhaps they just hate that shorthand name for whatever reason), you're likely going to get them to a point where it agitates them. And if you keep doing so at work it'll likely get you fired.
      - pcmoney 5y ago
        Sure but getting fired/agitating someone is different than the government putting me in prison for words.
- a_shovel 5y ago
  Your source is a site solely dedicated to anti-transgender propaganda. Every second headline on the front page is "transgender person commits crime". The headline for this article even invents the unwieldy term "Male Who Identifies as Female" so that it can avoid saying "Trans Woman," presumably because it would be too respectful of her. I wasn't able to find a better source than this, presumably because "Man Jailed 21 Days, Fined For Harassing Woman In Street" isn't the kind of headline to make international news (and I don't speak Norwegian).

devwastaken 5y ago

Transgenderism is the treatment to dysphoria. Dysphoria is a condition that is just as demonstrably provable as depression or any other mental illness. If you were to wake up tomorrow in the wrong body you would also have dysphoria, and you would also try to treat that. Humans are not some machines of perfect logical emotions and reasoning - you are no exception. On the contrary, it's narcissistic and selfish to think everyone has to be you, someone whom doesn't have dysphoria. That you are somehow the arbiter of what gender is. From what source is your knowledge based? I used to think things were defined in books and by experts, turns out we know jack about humans, all we can really know is by experiencing them, and I can tell you first hand dysphoria is enough for good people to kill themselves. So, think on why that is, and look to the truth for an answer.

fenderbluesjr 5y ago
Saying transgenderism is the treatment to dysphoria is itself an extremely controversial statement and not one you can present as as a pillar of any argument. There is a contingent that _don't want_ anything other than transgenderism to be the solution to dysphoria, because it would put a lot of question marks over the accepted dogma. This was previously on the WPATH Wikipedia page but has since been removed: In 2021, WPATH's President-Elect, Marci Bowers called the association intolerant of dissenting opinions. She said, "There are definitely people who are trying to keep out anyone who doesn't absolutely buy the party line that everything should be affirming, and that there's no room for dissent."
- devwastaken 5y ago
  It's not controversial, and the vast majority of transgender individuals belong to no orgs nor follow them. They're just people that are looking for solutions. There is always going to be political organizations using people and muddying the narrative for clout.
hitpointdrew 5y ago
> Transgenderism is the treatment to dysphoria. It's not a "treatment" at all. By definition a treatment (in this context) is: `The use of an agent, procedure, or regimen, such as a drug, surgery, or exercise, in an attempt to cure or mitigate a disease, condition, or injury.` Transgenderism is the rejection of any treatments, and an insistence there is no disease, condition, or injury. > On the contrary, it's narcissistic and selfish to think everyone has to be you I never claimed this. That said, if you want to have any useful discussions and dialog there has to be an agreement on things like definitions and facts. Otherwise communication is completely a useless endeavor. > That you are somehow the arbiter of what gender is. Again, never claimed I am somehow solely the arbiter or what gender is. >From what source is your knowledge based? From 1,000's of years of human history and language of people classifying biological sex. Also, just having common sense and the ability to do basic reasoning.