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You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. (You can't break the back of modularity-induced fragmentation and make a consistent GUI without making a

You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. (You can't break the back of modularity-induced fragmentation and make a consistent GUI without making a few people unhappy with the UI design that the majority chose). That is Gnome. Gnome has become a top-down project that values consistency/coherency over modularity/theming. It's an extreme, and I suspect that they went too far, but with it comes a number of benefits, such as a unified visual style across all apps, and an easy to use internationalization/localization subsystem.

fxtentacle 5y ago
No, this will just fragment app developers into those that use GTK4 and those that keep using GTK3.
zozbot234 5y ago
Gtk+ 3 with a custom theme allowed for a unified visual style across all desktop environments, not just GNOME. I could use a MATE- or Xfce-bundled app and not have it look out of place in a GNOME desktop, or vice versa. It's sad to lose this because of a combination of pointless churn and active hostility ("don't theme my app") to outside efforts that might improve the ecosystem.
phkahler 5y ago
>> You can't break the back of modularity-induced fragmentation and make a consistent GUI without making a few people unhappy with the UI design that the majority chose Not sure what that even means. The majority are not the Gnome developers, and many users will just adapt to whatever they're fed, even if it's worse. >> That is Gnome. Gnome has become a top-down project that values consistency/coherency over modularity/theming. No. People aren't complaining about a lack of consistency or a lack of theming (some do). They are complaining about a shitty design where the elements are consistently nonsensical and harder to understand than past version of the same. Top-down means a few people who are at "the top" think they know better. Not that they're great designers either - they are copying stupid trends that other "design" people came up with. This stuff is complained about on all OSes these days. It's not a vocal minority either, and you can tell because nobody complained that GTK was falling beind and needed to update to a modern "flat" design.
- phendrenad2 5y ago
  What you're not understanding is, just because something seems nonsensical to you doesn't mean that the majority of users don't find it perfectly reasonable. But you've already waved that possibility away by saying that most users will take whatever they're given, so I don't suppose you'll consider it.
qalmakka 5y ago
> That is Gnome. Gnome has become a top-down project that values consistency/coherency over modularity/theming They care about that so much that they break Gtk+ every few version, to the point that in 2022 there are still Gtk+ 2 apps around, and there will be Gtk+ 3 apps following old design paradigms for years to come. So much for consistency. It's 2022 and I don't see Qt 4 around anymore, or apps using it still being widely in use. Guess why? Because Qt developers actually give a damn about people using their library, and they give a damn about people using the _latest_ version of it. What GNOME is doing today is telling everyone to go fuck themselves, and pushing people towards writing their next app in Qt, which by the way integrates nicely with GNOME and does not look like garbage everywhere else. Now with PySide being finally a first class citizen and working well with QML there's not even the "but C++ is ugly" card to play against going Qt.

fxtentacle 5y ago

No, this will just fragment app developers into those that use GTK4 and those that keep using GTK3.

zozbot234 5y ago

Gtk+ 3 with a custom theme allowed for a unified visual style across all desktop environments, not just GNOME. I could use a MATE- or Xfce-bundled app and not have it look out of place in a GNOME desktop, or vice versa. It's sad to lose this because of a combination of pointless churn and active hostility ("don't theme my app") to outside efforts that might improve the ecosystem.

phkahler 5y ago

>> You can't break the back of modularity-induced fragmentation and make a consistent GUI without making a few people unhappy with the UI design that the majority chose Not sure what that even means. The majority are not the Gnome developers, and many users will just adapt to whatever they're fed, even if it's worse. >> That is Gnome. Gnome has become a top-down project that values consistency/coherency over modularity/theming. No. People aren't complaining about a lack of consistency or a lack of theming (some do). They are complaining about a shitty design where the elements are consistently nonsensical and harder to understand than past version of the same. Top-down means a few people who are at "the top" think they know better. Not that they're great designers either - they are copying stupid trends that other "design" people came up with. This stuff is complained about on all OSes these days. It's not a vocal minority either, and you can tell because nobody complained that GTK was falling beind and needed to update to a modern "flat" design.

phendrenad2 5y ago
What you're not understanding is, just because something seems nonsensical to you doesn't mean that the majority of users don't find it perfectly reasonable. But you've already waved that possibility away by saying that most users will take whatever they're given, so I don't suppose you'll consider it.

qalmakka 5y ago

> That is Gnome. Gnome has become a top-down project that values consistency/coherency over modularity/theming They care about that so much that they break Gtk+ every few version, to the point that in 2022 there are still Gtk+ 2 apps around, and there will be Gtk+ 3 apps following old design paradigms for years to come. So much for consistency. It's 2022 and I don't see Qt 4 around anymore, or apps using it still being widely in use. Guess why? Because Qt developers actually give a damn about people using their library, and they give a damn about people using the _latest_ version of it. What GNOME is doing today is telling everyone to go fuck themselves, and pushing people towards writing their next app in Qt, which by the way integrates nicely with GNOME and does not look like garbage everywhere else. Now with PySide being finally a first class citizen and working well with QML there's not even the "but C++ is ugly" card to play against going Qt.