16 ms·

Occupying Wall Street

103 points by mun2mun 15y ago

jeffool 15y ago
A wonderful article, though I think what's often unsaid in regards to the occupation is their commonality; they all feel that their voices, despite what it is that they're calling out for individually, are being ignored, despite being larger in number. Little is as frustrating as silence in the face of effort.
- hugh3 15y ago
  So they're frustrated that despite the fact that they've been whining for years that the world isn't perfect (where "perfect" means "precisely the way I want it to be), the world still isn't perfect? The solution: more whining?
  - michaelchisari 15y ago
    Do you really think that people are expecting the world to be perfect, or is that the straw man you prefer in order to ignore their demands? And, more esoterically, would the world ever progress if everyone accepted it as it was and never pushed for perfection?
tpatke 15y ago
For those of you who haven't heard about this, CNN has a bit more facts in it's coverage: http://edition.cnn.com/2011/10/06/politics/occupy-wall-street/index.html?hpt=ibu_c2 http://edition.cnn.com/2011/10/06/politics/occupy-wall-stree... The full impact of the greek default hasn't hit yet and it is not unreasonable to expect that Italy or Spain may default next. People have already started leaderless protests. Meanwhile - it's pretty easy to make money on the way down assuming you have it to begin with. It is not hard to predict some pretty big changes in the next few years.
- danmaz74 15y ago
  Italy and Spain are in a completely different situation if compared to Greece. Expecting that they will default is unreasonable.
  - diolpah 15y ago
    Spot on. And in 2007, the subprime housing crisis was "contained". Totally unreasonable to suspect that debt default contagion actually happens. Carry on, nothing to see here.
  - bd_at_rivenhill 15y ago
    Italy and Spain are dangerously over-leveraged in a low growth environment and thus vulnerable to a speculative attack that pushes interest rates up long enough for them to go into default. It is not clear yet whether the European establishment will toe the line on not letting a sovereign default on its obligations, but if they fail to do so, then such an attack becomes much more likely.
    - stygianguest 15y ago
      Italy. Yes. Spain. No. Spain has a smaller debt 65% of GDP compared to most western countries, including the USA (92%) and Germany (83%). They do have huge economic problems. Right now the biggest danger is that outside trouble brings down their banks.
      - danmaz74 15y ago
        On the other hand, Italy is running a primary surplus, its families are among the less indebted in the Western world, and its banks have liquidity. To put it simply: if needed, it is still possible for the government to raise a lot of money, for example through a property tax - something that has already been done in the past and is being discussed now.
coreymaass 15y ago
The question I can't find an answer to is, what do they actually want? I feel like "change" isn't specific enough. They need a single, obtainable goal, and focus on getting the media to say that goal with every report.
- Andrew_Quentin 15y ago
  People asked, well the media asked, what do the Egyptians want, or the Tunisians, when the protests first started there. Of course, we all found out what they wanted.
  - rimantas 15y ago
    Egyptians and Tunisians knew very well what they wanted. What do these people want is indeed unclear to me. Abolish the banks and give all the money to them? Hang all the rich people? Equality of the income? How would that look like? And how many of them are just too lazy to do something and would prefer not to do anything but will still be entitled to some benefits? A lot of those "99%" posters can be summarized by "I took a bunch of dumb decisions, then I took some credit for stuff I did not need, and now I am screwed". Who knew!
    - Andrew_Quentin 15y ago
      The protesters know very well what they want also. It is only the media who is unclear for very understandable reasons because this has only started. They are not asking to abolish the banks, but the Glass ceiling to be re-instated, they are asking for more equality of course, the graph for example that was posted here on HN a while ago showed clearly that while the country grew, wages did not, after 1970s, or, after the Regan Thatcer market prevails let the jungle rule. I do not know how many of them are lazy. I would not think many since it takes quite a lot of work to organize what they have and keep pushing forward. Many of them simply can not find a job and find themselves in a spiral without any help because of temporary difficulties. We have had plenty of posts here on HN just how poor people are trapped into poverty. Banks get money, little people get kicked out. Anyway, maybe you should visit their websites and read what they want.
r4vik 15y ago
watch some of them squirm through their cognitive dissonance. If you are protesting wall street then how the hell do you support Obama when his presidential campaign was bankrolled by Goldman Sachs? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFVR9Nv43J4&feature=share http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFVR9Nv43J4&feature=share
- Andrew_Quentin 15y ago
  They are in fact also protesting against the merger of big business and politics. They are thus demanding an end to big money like the example you gave into politics. I do not think this is necessarily a democrat's protest. This is a people's protest, the 99%.
  - Shivetya 15y ago
    Yet now they are being co-opted by a larger group, which many of us watching this unfold fully expected to happen. What makes it more galling is that many of those from the unions are in no shape or form middle class with very high incomes and high retirement payouts. The protesters we see now will have a difficult time not getting pushed aside by the machine. What the unions/DNC could not create they certainly can take.
    - r4vik 15y ago
      funny thing is that the same thing happened to the Tea Party, who got taken over by RNC community organisers. So out whet the pro-drugs, pro-immagration and pro-choice, and in comes the Christian Taliban under a new banner.
      - 3pt14159 15y ago
        Exactly. And the number of people that know that the tea party was started by Ron Paul is very low.
        diolpah 15y ago
maximusprime 15y ago
This whole 99% vs 1% BS is just getting ridiculous. Maybe they should be happy they're not the 99% of the world who die of starvation and preventable diseases instead of whining that it's so unfair. The protestors ARE in the 1%. It's depressing to see their open greed and belief they are entitled to more. Maybe if they applied all that energy toward creating wealth instead of protesting, they would be in a better situation. Or better yet, try and help the 99% of the world that's worse off than them.
- jeffool 15y ago
  I'm reminded of people who argue against high-paid athletes going on strike for being greedy, despite the institution owners pulling in far larger portions of the wealth. "They're paid millions to throw a ball around! They should be happy with a fraction of the wealth they generate!" Which is, of course, the underlying point. Who is really "creating" the wealth? That's a matter of perspective. I'm sure the self-described "99 percenters" feel they're the ones who "created" much of the wealth the "1%" has.
  - maximusprime 15y ago
    I don't think that's the point at all personally. Protesting that other people have more money than you is just the same as a 2 year old throwing a tantrum.
    - jotto 15y ago
      the "too big to fail" situation is dangerous. the banks are _correctly_ making big bets because they know it's impossible to default since the government HAS to bail them out to prevent contagion.
      - maximusprime 15y ago
        I don't think that's true. Many banks have fallen. Big ones as well. Also, the proper way is to vote out the government if they do something like that, and to make it clear you don't think it was a good idea. Protesting on streets is a barbaric way to do things.
ckeck 15y ago
I'd offer some of them a job...but then again I don't think they want one. Nor are they willing to take any sort of personal responsibility for the "mess" they are in. You didn't necessarily get screwed, you probably screwed yourself. And if you are complaining about tuition costs go protest at the universities, not Wall Street. How dumb can some people be? Certain financial institutions may certainly be at fault to a degree, but so is Washington and Congress and YOU. Take responsibility and do something positive for the country. This is a joke.
- icandoitbetter 15y ago
  You really believe that a vote has any power?
  - ckeck 15y ago
    Absolutely! But people need to vote at every single level from city council to the Presidency, not just once every 4 years for whoever your favorite news stations tells you to. I personally don't feel bad for or listen to those who refuse to vote.
    - artmageddon 15y ago
      >Absolutely! But people need to vote at every single level from city council to the Presidency, not just once every 4 years for whoever your favorite news stations tells you to. On the one hand I absolutely agree with you, but on the other hand, corporations vote with their dollars every single day.
      - deleted 15y ago
        [deleted]
      - ckeck 15y ago
        True, but who else votes with their dollars every day? American citizens. Perhaps some should pay more attention to what they are voting for with their wallets.
rick888 15y ago
"We are getting kicked out of our homes." ..and why is that? I want to see how many of these people protesting actually got kicked out of their homes and why. "We are forced to choose between groceries and rent." Do you have a cell phone? Do you have cable? Where do you live? "We are denied quality medical care." Interesting how this is somehow wall street's problems. Can I blame them for tax increases too? "We are suffering from environmental pollution." lol? "We are working long hours for little pay and no rights, if we are working at all. We are getting nothing while the other 1 percent is getting everything." If you can't find a job..you need to ask yourself why. I lost my job a little over a year ago and then started my own company. Since then, I've had tons of recruiters and other companies emailing me because they want me to work for them. There are still plenty of jobs out there. You just need to bust your ass to get them. Most people aren't willing to put in the work. I saw the start of this entitlement mentality with music and software piracy. Many people from this generation feel it's their "right" to be able to download these things for free. Now they are entitled to a home, a college education, and a job. They want equality, but the problem isn't we aren't all equal. I work 12 hours a day. As a result, I have more money in the bank than someone that works part-time. Why should I be limited or penalized for this? "So far, it's pick-your-own cause, with grievances ranging from bank bail-outs to animal testing, and yet what most of the mainstream media seems to have missed is the fact that the occupation itself is its own demand" This is why I find the entire "occupation" to be a joke. Every left-wing asshole with a grievance against big business is out there protesting.
- hvs 15y ago
  I'm not sure if it was the same way in the 60's and 70's, but every protest I saw in Chicago since 2003 always attracted a fair share of professional protestors. Your "Free Tibet"ers, environmentalists, and various others always seemed to show up for Iraq War protests and immigration protests. It's easy to ignore protesters when they are obviously doing it as lifestyle choice rather than out of honest indignation.
  - _delirium 15y ago
    There's not much you can do about such people showing up, though, unless you have a very organized, centrally run protest with a gatekeeper for who's allowed to show up. People who have their pet issues will show up and attempt to use the platform if participation is open. I guess you'd just need enough new people to swamp the 'regulars'. (These kinds of things are, incidentally, why Lenin-style communists argue for agitation to be tightly organized by a vanguard party, which keeps things on message and makes sure protests and other actions maximize tactical and strategic effectiveness, rather than becoming an incoherent free-for-all. But Leninist organization isn't too in favor on the contemporary left.)
lhnz 15y ago
They were sold security. Bow to authority, relinquish individual responsibility, receive a steady paycheck and a base standard of living. Here are your ethics: "Accept your place in life; don't fight for yourself: we'll fight for you. Turn on the TV and kick back. Be docile. We'll look after you." Now they're still repeating their original mistake: they're asking others to fix their situation. But the game has changed while they had relinquished control: real economic damage has been caused (Tragedy of the Commons). Of course, as usual, now there is a call to arms and a protest at authority, but they still don't understand: instead of asking for handouts they should fix their situation by putting in effort, taking responsibility and standing up for themselves and each other.
- nhaehnle 15y ago
  instead of asking for handouts they should fix their situation by putting in effort, taking responsibility and standing up for themselves and each other. Isn't that exactly what they're doing? Taking responsibility can take many different forms. No, those people are not taking an individualist entrepreneur route that most here on this particular forum are probably more comfortable with. However, the individualist approach cannot solve every problem. Sometimes, a different route is needed. The Occupy Wall Street protests are exactly the kind of process by which people are taking responsibility. Ideas are fermenting there, people are activated, becoming involved at whichever level (political or otherwise). This is not a uniform process - certainly, many people will just be there out of rage, not really becoming activated, but at the same time, many people undergo transformations, gaining knowledge, forming goals, talking about and then attempting concrete steps to get what they want. This is hard to believe if you've never actually been in touch with a movement like this, mostly because it is impossible to see such developments from the outside. I've been personally involved in similar things when I was younger (though at a smaller, local scale), and even I can't see what's going on as an outsider. But believe me, if you think those people are all shouting for somebody else to fix everything for them, you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.
  - lhnz 15y ago
    > Isn't that exactly what they're doing? Okay, yes. In a way. But they're taking responsibility to try to get other people to do something for them. You're right, I do have an individualistic perspective on this. I don't think it works well. The only control they will get over the situation will be the control they're given by the government/big industry. > But believe me, if you think those people are all shouting for somebody else to fix everything for them, you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. I'll take the bait. What are they doing other than protesting for a government response/solution to their woes?

103 points by mun2mun 15y ago

A wonderful article, though I think what's often unsaid in regards to the occupation is their commonality; they all feel that their voices, despite what it is that they're calling out for individually, are being ignored, despite being larger in number. Little is as frustrating as silence in the face of effort.

hugh3 15y ago
So they're frustrated that despite the fact that they've been whining for years that the world isn't perfect (where "perfect" means "precisely the way I want it to be), the world still isn't perfect? The solution: more whining?
- michaelchisari 15y ago
  Do you really think that people are expecting the world to be perfect, or is that the straw man you prefer in order to ignore their demands? And, more esoterically, would the world ever progress if everyone accepted it as it was and never pushed for perfection?

tpatke 15y ago

For those of you who haven't heard about this, CNN has a bit more facts in it's coverage: http://edition.cnn.com/2011/10/06/politics/occupy-wall-street/index.html?hpt=ibu_c2 http://edition.cnn.com/2011/10/06/politics/occupy-wall-stree... The full impact of the greek default hasn't hit yet and it is not unreasonable to expect that Italy or Spain may default next. People have already started leaderless protests. Meanwhile - it's pretty easy to make money on the way down assuming you have it to begin with. It is not hard to predict some pretty big changes in the next few years.

danmaz74 15y ago
Italy and Spain are in a completely different situation if compared to Greece. Expecting that they will default is unreasonable.
- diolpah 15y ago
  Spot on. And in 2007, the subprime housing crisis was "contained". Totally unreasonable to suspect that debt default contagion actually happens. Carry on, nothing to see here.
- bd_at_rivenhill 15y ago
  Italy and Spain are dangerously over-leveraged in a low growth environment and thus vulnerable to a speculative attack that pushes interest rates up long enough for them to go into default. It is not clear yet whether the European establishment will toe the line on not letting a sovereign default on its obligations, but if they fail to do so, then such an attack becomes much more likely.
  - stygianguest 15y ago
    Italy. Yes. Spain. No. Spain has a smaller debt 65% of GDP compared to most western countries, including the USA (92%) and Germany (83%). They do have huge economic problems. Right now the biggest danger is that outside trouble brings down their banks.
    - danmaz74 15y ago
      On the other hand, Italy is running a primary surplus, its families are among the less indebted in the Western world, and its banks have liquidity. To put it simply: if needed, it is still possible for the government to raise a lot of money, for example through a property tax - something that has already been done in the past and is being discussed now.

coreymaass 15y ago

The question I can't find an answer to is, what do they actually want? I feel like "change" isn't specific enough. They need a single, obtainable goal, and focus on getting the media to say that goal with every report.

Andrew_Quentin 15y ago
People asked, well the media asked, what do the Egyptians want, or the Tunisians, when the protests first started there. Of course, we all found out what they wanted.
- rimantas 15y ago
  Egyptians and Tunisians knew very well what they wanted. What do these people want is indeed unclear to me. Abolish the banks and give all the money to them? Hang all the rich people? Equality of the income? How would that look like? And how many of them are just too lazy to do something and would prefer not to do anything but will still be entitled to some benefits? A lot of those "99%" posters can be summarized by "I took a bunch of dumb decisions, then I took some credit for stuff I did not need, and now I am screwed". Who knew!
  - Andrew_Quentin 15y ago
    The protesters know very well what they want also. It is only the media who is unclear for very understandable reasons because this has only started. They are not asking to abolish the banks, but the Glass ceiling to be re-instated, they are asking for more equality of course, the graph for example that was posted here on HN a while ago showed clearly that while the country grew, wages did not, after 1970s, or, after the Regan Thatcer market prevails let the jungle rule. I do not know how many of them are lazy. I would not think many since it takes quite a lot of work to organize what they have and keep pushing forward. Many of them simply can not find a job and find themselves in a spiral without any help because of temporary difficulties. We have had plenty of posts here on HN just how poor people are trapped into poverty. Banks get money, little people get kicked out. Anyway, maybe you should visit their websites and read what they want.

r4vik 15y ago

watch some of them squirm through their cognitive dissonance. If you are protesting wall street then how the hell do you support Obama when his presidential campaign was bankrolled by Goldman Sachs? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFVR9Nv43J4&feature=share http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFVR9Nv43J4&feature=share

Andrew_Quentin 15y ago
They are in fact also protesting against the merger of big business and politics. They are thus demanding an end to big money like the example you gave into politics. I do not think this is necessarily a democrat's protest. This is a people's protest, the 99%.
- Shivetya 15y ago
  Yet now they are being co-opted by a larger group, which many of us watching this unfold fully expected to happen. What makes it more galling is that many of those from the unions are in no shape or form middle class with very high incomes and high retirement payouts. The protesters we see now will have a difficult time not getting pushed aside by the machine. What the unions/DNC could not create they certainly can take.
  - r4vik 15y ago
    funny thing is that the same thing happened to the Tea Party, who got taken over by RNC community organisers. So out whet the pro-drugs, pro-immagration and pro-choice, and in comes the Christian Taliban under a new banner.
    - 3pt14159 15y ago
      Exactly. And the number of people that know that the tea party was started by Ron Paul is very low.
      - diolpah 15y ago

maximusprime 15y ago

This whole 99% vs 1% BS is just getting ridiculous. Maybe they should be happy they're not the 99% of the world who die of starvation and preventable diseases instead of whining that it's so unfair. The protestors ARE in the 1%. It's depressing to see their open greed and belief they are entitled to more. Maybe if they applied all that energy toward creating wealth instead of protesting, they would be in a better situation. Or better yet, try and help the 99% of the world that's worse off than them.

jeffool 15y ago
I'm reminded of people who argue against high-paid athletes going on strike for being greedy, despite the institution owners pulling in far larger portions of the wealth. "They're paid millions to throw a ball around! They should be happy with a fraction of the wealth they generate!" Which is, of course, the underlying point. Who is really "creating" the wealth? That's a matter of perspective. I'm sure the self-described "99 percenters" feel they're the ones who "created" much of the wealth the "1%" has.
- maximusprime 15y ago
  I don't think that's the point at all personally. Protesting that other people have more money than you is just the same as a 2 year old throwing a tantrum.
  - jotto 15y ago
    the "too big to fail" situation is dangerous. the banks are _correctly_ making big bets because they know it's impossible to default since the government HAS to bail them out to prevent contagion.
    - maximusprime 15y ago
      I don't think that's true. Many banks have fallen. Big ones as well. Also, the proper way is to vote out the government if they do something like that, and to make it clear you don't think it was a good idea. Protesting on streets is a barbaric way to do things.

ckeck 15y ago

I'd offer some of them a job...but then again I don't think they want one. Nor are they willing to take any sort of personal responsibility for the "mess" they are in. You didn't necessarily get screwed, you probably screwed yourself. And if you are complaining about tuition costs go protest at the universities, not Wall Street. How dumb can some people be? Certain financial institutions may certainly be at fault to a degree, but so is Washington and Congress and YOU. Take responsibility and do something positive for the country. This is a joke.

icandoitbetter 15y ago
You really believe that a vote has any power?
- ckeck 15y ago
  Absolutely! But people need to vote at every single level from city council to the Presidency, not just once every 4 years for whoever your favorite news stations tells you to. I personally don't feel bad for or listen to those who refuse to vote.
  - artmageddon 15y ago
    >Absolutely! But people need to vote at every single level from city council to the Presidency, not just once every 4 years for whoever your favorite news stations tells you to. On the one hand I absolutely agree with you, but on the other hand, corporations vote with their dollars every single day.
    - deleted 15y ago
      [deleted]
    - ckeck 15y ago
      True, but who else votes with their dollars every day? American citizens. Perhaps some should pay more attention to what they are voting for with their wallets.

rick888 15y ago

"We are getting kicked out of our homes." ..and why is that? I want to see how many of these people protesting actually got kicked out of their homes and why. "We are forced to choose between groceries and rent." Do you have a cell phone? Do you have cable? Where do you live? "We are denied quality medical care." Interesting how this is somehow wall street's problems. Can I blame them for tax increases too? "We are suffering from environmental pollution." lol? "We are working long hours for little pay and no rights, if we are working at all. We are getting nothing while the other 1 percent is getting everything." If you can't find a job..you need to ask yourself why. I lost my job a little over a year ago and then started my own company. Since then, I've had tons of recruiters and other companies emailing me because they want me to work for them. There are still plenty of jobs out there. You just need to bust your ass to get them. Most people aren't willing to put in the work. I saw the start of this entitlement mentality with music and software piracy. Many people from this generation feel it's their "right" to be able to download these things for free. Now they are entitled to a home, a college education, and a job. They want equality, but the problem isn't we aren't all equal. I work 12 hours a day. As a result, I have more money in the bank than someone that works part-time. Why should I be limited or penalized for this? "So far, it's pick-your-own cause, with grievances ranging from bank bail-outs to animal testing, and yet what most of the mainstream media seems to have missed is the fact that the occupation itself is its own demand" This is why I find the entire "occupation" to be a joke. Every left-wing asshole with a grievance against big business is out there protesting.

hvs 15y ago
I'm not sure if it was the same way in the 60's and 70's, but every protest I saw in Chicago since 2003 always attracted a fair share of professional protestors. Your "Free Tibet"ers, environmentalists, and various others always seemed to show up for Iraq War protests and immigration protests. It's easy to ignore protesters when they are obviously doing it as lifestyle choice rather than out of honest indignation.
- _delirium 15y ago
  There's not much you can do about such people showing up, though, unless you have a very organized, centrally run protest with a gatekeeper for who's allowed to show up. People who have their pet issues will show up and attempt to use the platform if participation is open. I guess you'd just need enough new people to swamp the 'regulars'. (These kinds of things are, incidentally, why Lenin-style communists argue for agitation to be tightly organized by a vanguard party, which keeps things on message and makes sure protests and other actions maximize tactical and strategic effectiveness, rather than becoming an incoherent free-for-all. But Leninist organization isn't too in favor on the contemporary left.)

lhnz 15y ago

They were sold security. Bow to authority, relinquish individual responsibility, receive a steady paycheck and a base standard of living. Here are your ethics: "Accept your place in life; don't fight for yourself: we'll fight for you. Turn on the TV and kick back. Be docile. We'll look after you." Now they're still repeating their original mistake: they're asking others to fix their situation. But the game has changed while they had relinquished control: real economic damage has been caused (Tragedy of the Commons). Of course, as usual, now there is a call to arms and a protest at authority, but they still don't understand: instead of asking for handouts they should fix their situation by putting in effort, taking responsibility and standing up for themselves and each other.

nhaehnle 15y ago
instead of asking for handouts they should fix their situation by putting in effort, taking responsibility and standing up for themselves and each other. Isn't that exactly what they're doing? Taking responsibility can take many different forms. No, those people are not taking an individualist entrepreneur route that most here on this particular forum are probably more comfortable with. However, the individualist approach cannot solve every problem. Sometimes, a different route is needed. The Occupy Wall Street protests are exactly the kind of process by which people are taking responsibility. Ideas are fermenting there, people are activated, becoming involved at whichever level (political or otherwise). This is not a uniform process - certainly, many people will just be there out of rage, not really becoming activated, but at the same time, many people undergo transformations, gaining knowledge, forming goals, talking about and then attempting concrete steps to get what they want. This is hard to believe if you've never actually been in touch with a movement like this, mostly because it is impossible to see such developments from the outside. I've been personally involved in similar things when I was younger (though at a smaller, local scale), and even I can't see what's going on as an outsider. But believe me, if you think those people are all shouting for somebody else to fix everything for them, you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.
- lhnz 15y ago
  > Isn't that exactly what they're doing? Okay, yes. In a way. But they're taking responsibility to try to get other people to do something for them. You're right, I do have an individualistic perspective on this. I don't think it works well. The only control they will get over the situation will be the control they're given by the government/big industry. > But believe me, if you think those people are all shouting for somebody else to fix everything for them, you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. I'll take the bait. What are they doing other than protesting for a government response/solution to their woes?