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That's an argument which could be made for any market or industry. There are obviously a finite amount of people in the world, and those people have a finite am

by bryans 5y ago

That's an argument which could be made for any market or industry. There are obviously a finite amount of people in the world, and those people have a finite amount of time to find and listen to music, so there is always competition and certain artists are going to stand out among others -- that's the nature of human preference. But that doesn't automatically mean a few are successful and everyone else fails. It's a spectrum of success which, as it turns out, is directly proportional to the effort invested toward getting better and producing more attractive content.

lotsofpulp 5y ago
I think it has more of an effect on markets where the marginal cost of an additional sale (or attention) is effectively zero, which results in very bimodal winner (or top few winners) take all type situations. Not that there is anything wrong with considering success to be whatever you achieve without outside funds trying to promote you, it all simply depends on personal goals and what you are willing to give up to gain an edge.
skinnymuch 5y ago
If things in life were directly proportional to effort and similar things. We’d be living in a meritocracy. Society doesn’t work that way. There are most certainly people who failed while putting in more and better effort than others who succeeded.
- bryans 5y ago
  No, there are people who put more effort toward the wrong things, and that's why they didn't find the same success. The best songwriter in the world could be incredibly unsuccessful if they don't have any concept of how to market themselves properly, so sitting in their studio practicing guitar all day is technically effort, but it isn't doing anything to progress their career. That's exactly why most musicians fail. They don't bother googling "how to be a band" or learning any of the necessary skills to be successful independently, and instead spend all of their time hoping that someone will "discover" them. I've quite literally never once seen a musician expend effort toward learning marketing and business without finding success.
  - whiddershins 5y ago
    I have seen several real life examples who have.
    - bryans 5y ago
      Then I would question what material they were learning, or how much effort they actually expended. I've watched even the worst songwriters and performers find success by grinding away at the right stones, so "I know a guy who tried Facebook ads and it didn't work" doesn't mean anything.
      - whiddershins 5y ago
        I don’t know who you are or what your perspective is but I am a music industry professional in New York. I also don’t know how you are defining success. I also don’t know all your marketing knowledge. Maybe you know a whole set of things I am completely unaware of. What I do know is success as an artist seems to be a weird blend of savvy, talent, luck … and who knows what else. I have a bad reaction when people make blanket statements like you are doing, because it has a hint of victim blaming.
        bryans 5y ago
        It's somewhat disturbing that you would claim I'm "victim blaming" by asking for details on what these "unsuccessful marketing musicians" actually studied. "Victim" is a wholly inappropriate word to describe being unsuccessful at something. You initially added nothing to the conversation, except for a very brief and vague claim about how you may know some people who contradict my own experiences. So, I'm not sure what kind of response you were hoping for, but a little snark never hurt anyone, and you're overreacting to it. If you have an actual example of a musician who studied marketing and business but was unsuccessful, I'd love to hear about it, because I've simply never seen it happen.
        whiddershins 5y ago
lmm 5y ago
But the argument is valid for most hit-based markets/industries, isn't it? It seems like many markets and industries are initially dominated by indie, creator-driven work, but then gradually as they mature and become more commodified, agencies and corporations start to dominate. Look at YouTube-style streaming, or digital game distribution.

by bryans 5y ago

lotsofpulp 5y ago

I think it has more of an effect on markets where the marginal cost of an additional sale (or attention) is effectively zero, which results in very bimodal winner (or top few winners) take all type situations. Not that there is anything wrong with considering success to be whatever you achieve without outside funds trying to promote you, it all simply depends on personal goals and what you are willing to give up to gain an edge.

skinnymuch 5y ago

If things in life were directly proportional to effort and similar things. We’d be living in a meritocracy. Society doesn’t work that way. There are most certainly people who failed while putting in more and better effort than others who succeeded.

bryans 5y ago
No, there are people who put more effort toward the wrong things, and that's why they didn't find the same success. The best songwriter in the world could be incredibly unsuccessful if they don't have any concept of how to market themselves properly, so sitting in their studio practicing guitar all day is technically effort, but it isn't doing anything to progress their career. That's exactly why most musicians fail. They don't bother googling "how to be a band" or learning any of the necessary skills to be successful independently, and instead spend all of their time hoping that someone will "discover" them. I've quite literally never once seen a musician expend effort toward learning marketing and business without finding success.
- whiddershins 5y ago
  I have seen several real life examples who have.
  - bryans 5y ago
    Then I would question what material they were learning, or how much effort they actually expended. I've watched even the worst songwriters and performers find success by grinding away at the right stones, so "I know a guy who tried Facebook ads and it didn't work" doesn't mean anything.
    - whiddershins 5y ago
      I don’t know who you are or what your perspective is but I am a music industry professional in New York. I also don’t know how you are defining success. I also don’t know all your marketing knowledge. Maybe you know a whole set of things I am completely unaware of. What I do know is success as an artist seems to be a weird blend of savvy, talent, luck … and who knows what else. I have a bad reaction when people make blanket statements like you are doing, because it has a hint of victim blaming.
      - bryans 5y ago
        It's somewhat disturbing that you would claim I'm "victim blaming" by asking for details on what these "unsuccessful marketing musicians" actually studied. "Victim" is a wholly inappropriate word to describe being unsuccessful at something. You initially added nothing to the conversation, except for a very brief and vague claim about how you may know some people who contradict my own experiences. So, I'm not sure what kind of response you were hoping for, but a little snark never hurt anyone, and you're overreacting to it. If you have an actual example of a musician who studied marketing and business but was unsuccessful, I'd love to hear about it, because I've simply never seen it happen.
        whiddershins 5y ago

lmm 5y ago

But the argument is valid for most hit-based markets/industries, isn't it? It seems like many markets and industries are initially dominated by indie, creator-driven work, but then gradually as they mature and become more commodified, agencies and corporations start to dominate. Look at YouTube-style streaming, or digital game distribution.