12 ms·

People are confusing their psychological mind with their physical reality. You don’t just get to decide you’re a bird and be able to fly. Why do we debate this

by water8 5y ago

People are confusing their psychological mind with their physical reality. You don’t just get to decide you’re a bird and be able to fly. Why do we debate this stuff? Instead of getting so offended stop Defineing yourself by something so insignificant

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
dwaltrip 5y ago
The psychological mind is a real physical thing. No one is claiming to be a bird. That's a non-sequitur. We debate these things because some people say "I feel X" and others say "You aren't allowed to feel that way and here is how we will marginalize you for that". These are complicated issues. We should be willing to listen more and not assume we have all the answers about people who may have a very different life experience than you or me.
- hitpointdrew 5y ago
  > We debate these things because some people say "I feel X" and others say "You aren't allowed to feel that way and here is how we will marginalize you for that". Talk about missing the plot. This is 100% incorrect and not at all what the debate is about. No cares how anyone feels, people can feel any way they want, this is not the complaint. The issue is “I believe I am <gender>, and I demand you treat me as <gender>, and also demand that you also agree that I not only feel like <gender>, but that I actually am <gender>.” Yeah, sorry no that isn’t how biology works. It’s also selfish and narcissistic to demand everyone else partake in your self perception. Demanding everyone use your “pronouns” is just as silly if I demanded that everyone use the adjectives “strong and handsome” when they refer to me because that is how I feel and perceive myself. Having my own adjectives is extremely pompous, and so is having your own pronouns. You can feel however you want that’s fine, but you don’t get demand every else in the world must take part in your self perception and compel their speech and behavior to do so.
  - dwaltrip 5y ago
    See my comment to your sibling: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30797059 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30797059 Equating gender / identity phenomena with wanting to be considered "strong and handsome" is not very... charitable. The whole pronoun thing is massively overblown from what I've seen. Very, very, very few people are asking for unusual pronouns. Calling someone "they / their" is not hard. I live in LA and only come across someone asking once or twice. It's not a big deal. For what it is worth, I sort of agree with you on the unusual pronouns. I'm not sure what I would do if someone asked me to call them some pronoun I've never heard of. I'm usually pretty agreeable, so I would try to be polite. But it would probably weird me out a bit. However, I don't even know if I will ever face this scenario. I'm not too worried about it :)
    - xdennis 5y ago
      - dwaltrip 5y ago
        You haven’t made an argument for why you think it is a lie. It would be helpful if you did that.
        pcmoney 5y ago
        I dont think it is a lie if everyone’s truth is “equal” but I also dont think my preferences should be able to control others speech, even though I personally don’t mind using preferred pronouns. Even if offense was intended, you don’t tend to get jail time for insulting someone.
        fzeroracer 5y ago
        We already do this in our every day life. If you talk to someone named Johnny and repeatedly call them John against their wishes (perhaps they just hate that shorthand name for whatever reason), you're likely going to get them to a point where it agitates them. And if you keep doing so at work it'll likely get you fired.
- azth 5y ago
  > We debate these things because some people say "I feel X" and others say "You aren't allowed to feel that way and here is how we will marginalize you for that". Sounds like a straw man fallacy. Some people are saying "I feel like such and such", and the others are saying "you have a mental condition, let's seek medical treatment".
  - dwaltrip 5y ago
    Being gay used to be considered a medical condition, but now everyone agrees that was a huge mistake. We should tread carefully here. Maybe there are genuine disorders affecting some aspects of the less commonly found gender / identity phenomena. I'm not an expert. I don't know. I'm guessing you aren't either. I'd prefer to error on the side of respecting the way someone feels if they aren't hurting anyone or imposing a large burden.
    - pcmoney 5y ago
      I would say hormone blockers in prepubescent teens without parental consent is not treading lightly. The de-transition community on reddit and Twitter can more concretely explain and show the harm being done under the desire to be blindly supportive and affirming.
      - fzeroracer 5y ago
        Hormone blockers in prepubescent teens has been used for decades before transgender people had the option available. It was frequently used to treat people going through early puberty. We know how safe and effective they are because we have a whole body of scientific literature around people being on hormone blockers for 5-6+ years. It's only as a result of the fear around transgender people that this is causing problems and, as usual, it also affects cisgender children because they issue blanket bans on treatments.
        pcmoney 5y ago
        On a case by case basis, sure. However we are seeing a mass psychosis around trans identity in middle school. The rates of middle school girls identifying as something other than CIS are reaching levels as high as 40% in some school districts. Maybe that is not a problem for some but that will be a problem for society in about a generation.
- jsnodlin 5y ago
- Der_Einzige 5y ago
  The otherkin community does believe they are birds, and the overlap between them and trans people is likely quite high (specifically I claim that many more otherkin are trans than would be expected from non otherkin) Same with furries but less extreme. Also lots of overlap.
- mensetmanusman 5y ago
  claiming to be a bird is a thing. They call themselves ‘otherkin’ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otherkin https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otherkin

by water8 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

dwaltrip 5y ago

The psychological mind is a real physical thing. No one is claiming to be a bird. That's a non-sequitur. We debate these things because some people say "I feel X" and others say "You aren't allowed to feel that way and here is how we will marginalize you for that". These are complicated issues. We should be willing to listen more and not assume we have all the answers about people who may have a very different life experience than you or me.

hitpointdrew 5y ago
> We debate these things because some people say "I feel X" and others say "You aren't allowed to feel that way and here is how we will marginalize you for that". Talk about missing the plot. This is 100% incorrect and not at all what the debate is about. No cares how anyone feels, people can feel any way they want, this is not the complaint. The issue is “I believe I am <gender>, and I demand you treat me as <gender>, and also demand that you also agree that I not only feel like <gender>, but that I actually am <gender>.” Yeah, sorry no that isn’t how biology works. It’s also selfish and narcissistic to demand everyone else partake in your self perception. Demanding everyone use your “pronouns” is just as silly if I demanded that everyone use the adjectives “strong and handsome” when they refer to me because that is how I feel and perceive myself. Having my own adjectives is extremely pompous, and so is having your own pronouns. You can feel however you want that’s fine, but you don’t get demand every else in the world must take part in your self perception and compel their speech and behavior to do so.
- dwaltrip 5y ago
  See my comment to your sibling: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30797059 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30797059 Equating gender / identity phenomena with wanting to be considered "strong and handsome" is not very... charitable. The whole pronoun thing is massively overblown from what I've seen. Very, very, very few people are asking for unusual pronouns. Calling someone "they / their" is not hard. I live in LA and only come across someone asking once or twice. It's not a big deal. For what it is worth, I sort of agree with you on the unusual pronouns. I'm not sure what I would do if someone asked me to call them some pronoun I've never heard of. I'm usually pretty agreeable, so I would try to be polite. But it would probably weird me out a bit. However, I don't even know if I will ever face this scenario. I'm not too worried about it :)
  - xdennis 5y ago
    - dwaltrip 5y ago
      You haven’t made an argument for why you think it is a lie. It would be helpful if you did that.
      - pcmoney 5y ago
        I dont think it is a lie if everyone’s truth is “equal” but I also dont think my preferences should be able to control others speech, even though I personally don’t mind using preferred pronouns. Even if offense was intended, you don’t tend to get jail time for insulting someone.
        fzeroracer 5y ago
        We already do this in our every day life. If you talk to someone named Johnny and repeatedly call them John against their wishes (perhaps they just hate that shorthand name for whatever reason), you're likely going to get them to a point where it agitates them. And if you keep doing so at work it'll likely get you fired.
azth 5y ago
> We debate these things because some people say "I feel X" and others say "You aren't allowed to feel that way and here is how we will marginalize you for that". Sounds like a straw man fallacy. Some people are saying "I feel like such and such", and the others are saying "you have a mental condition, let's seek medical treatment".
- dwaltrip 5y ago
  Being gay used to be considered a medical condition, but now everyone agrees that was a huge mistake. We should tread carefully here. Maybe there are genuine disorders affecting some aspects of the less commonly found gender / identity phenomena. I'm not an expert. I don't know. I'm guessing you aren't either. I'd prefer to error on the side of respecting the way someone feels if they aren't hurting anyone or imposing a large burden.
  - pcmoney 5y ago
    I would say hormone blockers in prepubescent teens without parental consent is not treading lightly. The de-transition community on reddit and Twitter can more concretely explain and show the harm being done under the desire to be blindly supportive and affirming.
    - fzeroracer 5y ago
      Hormone blockers in prepubescent teens has been used for decades before transgender people had the option available. It was frequently used to treat people going through early puberty. We know how safe and effective they are because we have a whole body of scientific literature around people being on hormone blockers for 5-6+ years. It's only as a result of the fear around transgender people that this is causing problems and, as usual, it also affects cisgender children because they issue blanket bans on treatments.
      - pcmoney 5y ago
        On a case by case basis, sure. However we are seeing a mass psychosis around trans identity in middle school. The rates of middle school girls identifying as something other than CIS are reaching levels as high as 40% in some school districts. Maybe that is not a problem for some but that will be a problem for society in about a generation.
jsnodlin 5y ago
Der_Einzige 5y ago
The otherkin community does believe they are birds, and the overlap between them and trans people is likely quite high (specifically I claim that many more otherkin are trans than would be expected from non otherkin) Same with furries but less extreme. Also lots of overlap.
mensetmanusman 5y ago
claiming to be a bird is a thing. They call themselves ‘otherkin’ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otherkin https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otherkin