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> 5.2 YOU AGREE AND ACKNOWLEDGE THAT, ONCE A PRODUCT IS USED OR CONTROLLED BY OR THROUGH THE DIGITAL IMAGING SYSTEM, SUCH PRODUCT SHALL BE OUT OF SUCH MANUFACTU

> 5.2 YOU AGREE AND ACKNOWLEDGE THAT, ONCE A PRODUCT IS USED OR CONTROLLED BY OR THROUGH THE DIGITAL IMAGING SYSTEM, SUCH PRODUCT SHALL BE OUT OF SUCH MANUFACTURER-WARRANTY WITH RESPECT TO THE PRODUCT AS SEPARATELY SPECIFIED BY FUJIFILM, FUJIFILM’S AFFILIATES, OR THEIR BUSINESS PARTNERS. Brutal. Consumer protections are lagging badly behind in the software era. It's bad enough that commercial software has broad disclaimers against ensuring any kind of functionality, but this stuff is starting to creep into hardware too. I think right-to-repair is a good start.

Manuel_D 5y ago
I think it's totally valid to void warranty when customers modify product software. If users do things like disable temperature limits and mess up their camera, then I see no reason why the company (and be extension, other customers) should foot the bill. Giving away the SDK, regardless of warranty revocation, is a step ahead of most camera manufacturers.
- hexo 5y ago
  No, it's not valid. At all. I think it is illegal in some countries and should be illegal everywhere. It was enough of these "practices".
  - rosndo 5y ago
    Not illegal, just not binding.
  - Manuel_D 5y ago
    If I swap out my car's engine with a more powerful one and screw up the drivetrain will warranty cover it? If I load broken firmware onto my device that screws it up, why should the company be on the hook? Replacing firmware is no different than replacing any other component. What countries force companies to provide warranty when users load faulty firmware onto devices?
    - MrStonedOne 5y ago
      > If I swap out my car's engine with a more powerful one yes, legally required to be covered in the us. > and screw up the drivetrain will warranty cover it? No, not legally required to be covered in the us. The difference is the law specifies the manufacturer can not assume a leads to b, they have to a reason to think b was caused by a.
    - cge 5y ago
      That's not the problem. The problem here is that Fuji appears to be claiming that any use of the SDK voids the warranty entirely, regardless of the defect. t would be like if you swapped out your car's engine with a more powerful one, and then, from a completely unrelated fault, its navigation system stops working. In the US, my understanding is that this is explicitly not legal, per the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act. FujiFilm can choose not to offer a warranty at all, but if they offer one, then it must cover defects on modified devices unless they can show that the modification caused or contributed to the defect. In the EU, it is my understanding that it is legal to have a guarantee with terms like these. However, regardless of any guarantee the manufacturer may offer, there is a statutory guarantee in the EU for most products, which completely ignores the terms that the manufacturer might prefer. This usually ends up being weaker than Magnuson–Moss in terms of duration and modifications. But it usually means that for six months, the seller must prove that the fault with the product was caused by the consumer, and for two years, if you can show that the problem is from a defect with the device originally and not from you, then you can still get repairs, replacement, or a refund.
    - DannyBee 5y ago
      The short answer is: The warranty must cover damage not caused by your modification. There are no countries i'm aware of that require you warranty damage caused by user modification. Lots of countries require that you do not void the entire warranty, or refuse service, of any damage not caused by the modification, and generally the manufacturer has to show the damage was caused by the modification if they want to refuse service. In this case, Fuji is trying to void the entire warranty. That is not legal in a lot of countries.
    - Zak 5y ago
- opencl 5y ago
  The SDK basically gives remote shutter control and file transfer. There is nothing in it that could plausibly damage anything.
  - judge2020 5y ago
    There are a lot of changeable settings listed in those header files, chances are some combination of settings or other highly-tuned SDK usage could put the camera to work and potentially cause it to overheat (eg. forcing a specific shutter speed while also capping the movie shutter speed, perhaps) since they're not testing the use cases you could theoretically enable via the SDK.
    - deathanatos 5y ago
      Then that's a defect in the product, not the fault of the user, and should be covered under warranty. (& the defect should get fixed. Nobody wants to brick their camera.)
  - ceeg 5y ago
    wouldnt shutter control give the possibility of the image sensor overheating from extended exposures? I could absolutely be talking out of my ass but I thought I remembered that being a risk when I flashed ML to my Canon for star photos.
    - muhehe 5y ago
      Basically every camera I have had has a "bulb", which is pretty much as-long-as-you-want exposure. Never heard of sensor overheating even after hours of exposure.
      - Manuel_D 5y ago
        Overheating is more of an issue for the image processor, at high frame rates. During bulb mode, the sensor is on for a long time but it's only one frame being handled by the image processor.
- jchw 5y ago
  Hardware should be designed to be resilient to broken software to whatever degree possible. And then still, warranty should cover defects in the face of modified software. The SDK is not some hack downloaded from some shady website. It’s not a third-party unauthorized tool. This isn’t like, “I transformed my Tesla into an ICE car and then asked them to fix it.” It’s like, “I paired my phone via Bluetooth to the entertainment system and now they won’t fix my defective AC.” Yes it’s hard to prove that hardware wasn’t broken by broken, unauthorized software modifications. Is there even a small amount of evidence that the warranty burden caused by software modifications is significant? Many stores are happy to cover occasional consumer error even if they’re not actually liable to, and that is SURELY more common than firmware modifications. Not to mention the directions this could go into. Oh, malware exploited our phones and then modified the system firmware? Sorry, your warranty is void because you ran unofficial firmware, goodbye. (Obviously, and especially in the last case, if you do break your device on your own, or someone else does, then of course manufacturer warranties do not cover that. That’s a whole different wheelhouse. But your warranty should not be entirely void over software. This is the same as those technically-not-legally-binding “warranty void if removed” stickers everyone unfortunately tolerates.)
e2le 5y ago
Is that even legal? It seems similar to the "warranty void" stickers which are nothing more than an illegal scare tactic that many individuals are conned into believing. https://www.ifixit.com/News/11748/warranty-stickers-are-illegal https://www.ifixit.com/News/11748/warranty-stickers-are-ille... https://www.ifixit.com/News/15464/warranty-voiding-stickers-are-illegal-but-these-companies-are-still-using-them https://www.ifixit.com/News/15464/warranty-voiding-stickers-...
- judge2020 5y ago
  Even if it's illegal it doesn't override user protection laws, so the statement has no effect and they'd need to prove your SDK usage caused an issue with the product to legally deny warranty.
- kahrl 5y ago
  It's not just a scare tactic, it's how these companies operate. They will illegally refuse to service products they have an obligation to. Until there are massive class action lawsuits, this isn't changing.
- kotaKat 5y ago
  The contract is under Japanese jurisdiction. Does anyone here know Japanese law in regards to something like this?
  - ashtonkem 5y ago
    No, I don’t think that’s how that works. Your contracts with your customers is under the jurisdiction of where your customers live, not where your company is headquartered. It would be way too easy to side step any law they wished that way. Plus, must camera manufacturers sell through an american subsidiary. I know thats how Canon works.
cosmotic 5y ago
Regardless of their written policy or silly warranty void stickers, the law dictates the warranty still covers all components not modified or damaged by the consumer. You might have to fight in court, but thats the law.
DannyBee 5y ago
Even in consumer places like the US, this is generally illegal. They would not be able to refuse warranty service without showing that your use of the SDK was the reason the camera failed (and the burden would be on them). IE they can't say "Yes, the lens popped out because it was defective, but you used the SDK so tough crap"
- tomaskafka 5y ago
  Funnily I had exactly this happen with HTC One - yes, your phone camera has degraded inside a warranty period and all photos have purple fade, but since you unlocked the bootloader, you're out of luck, bye.
  - DannyBee 5y ago
    I've had good luck without having to resort to legal process. But some companies are recalcitrant about it.
jug 5y ago
Good luck enforcing this in an EU court lol
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

Manuel_D 5y ago

I think it's totally valid to void warranty when customers modify product software. If users do things like disable temperature limits and mess up their camera, then I see no reason why the company (and be extension, other customers) should foot the bill. Giving away the SDK, regardless of warranty revocation, is a step ahead of most camera manufacturers.

hexo 5y ago
No, it's not valid. At all. I think it is illegal in some countries and should be illegal everywhere. It was enough of these "practices".
- rosndo 5y ago
  Not illegal, just not binding.
- Manuel_D 5y ago
  If I swap out my car's engine with a more powerful one and screw up the drivetrain will warranty cover it? If I load broken firmware onto my device that screws it up, why should the company be on the hook? Replacing firmware is no different than replacing any other component. What countries force companies to provide warranty when users load faulty firmware onto devices?
  - MrStonedOne 5y ago
    > If I swap out my car's engine with a more powerful one yes, legally required to be covered in the us. > and screw up the drivetrain will warranty cover it? No, not legally required to be covered in the us. The difference is the law specifies the manufacturer can not assume a leads to b, they have to a reason to think b was caused by a.
  - cge 5y ago
    That's not the problem. The problem here is that Fuji appears to be claiming that any use of the SDK voids the warranty entirely, regardless of the defect. t would be like if you swapped out your car's engine with a more powerful one, and then, from a completely unrelated fault, its navigation system stops working. In the US, my understanding is that this is explicitly not legal, per the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act. FujiFilm can choose not to offer a warranty at all, but if they offer one, then it must cover defects on modified devices unless they can show that the modification caused or contributed to the defect. In the EU, it is my understanding that it is legal to have a guarantee with terms like these. However, regardless of any guarantee the manufacturer may offer, there is a statutory guarantee in the EU for most products, which completely ignores the terms that the manufacturer might prefer. This usually ends up being weaker than Magnuson–Moss in terms of duration and modifications. But it usually means that for six months, the seller must prove that the fault with the product was caused by the consumer, and for two years, if you can show that the problem is from a defect with the device originally and not from you, then you can still get repairs, replacement, or a refund.
  - DannyBee 5y ago
    The short answer is: The warranty must cover damage not caused by your modification. There are no countries i'm aware of that require you warranty damage caused by user modification. Lots of countries require that you do not void the entire warranty, or refuse service, of any damage not caused by the modification, and generally the manufacturer has to show the damage was caused by the modification if they want to refuse service. In this case, Fuji is trying to void the entire warranty. That is not legal in a lot of countries.
  - Zak 5y ago
opencl 5y ago
The SDK basically gives remote shutter control and file transfer. There is nothing in it that could plausibly damage anything.
- judge2020 5y ago
  There are a lot of changeable settings listed in those header files, chances are some combination of settings or other highly-tuned SDK usage could put the camera to work and potentially cause it to overheat (eg. forcing a specific shutter speed while also capping the movie shutter speed, perhaps) since they're not testing the use cases you could theoretically enable via the SDK.
  - deathanatos 5y ago
    Then that's a defect in the product, not the fault of the user, and should be covered under warranty. (& the defect should get fixed. Nobody wants to brick their camera.)
- ceeg 5y ago
  wouldnt shutter control give the possibility of the image sensor overheating from extended exposures? I could absolutely be talking out of my ass but I thought I remembered that being a risk when I flashed ML to my Canon for star photos.
  - muhehe 5y ago
    Basically every camera I have had has a "bulb", which is pretty much as-long-as-you-want exposure. Never heard of sensor overheating even after hours of exposure.
    - Manuel_D 5y ago
      Overheating is more of an issue for the image processor, at high frame rates. During bulb mode, the sensor is on for a long time but it's only one frame being handled by the image processor.
jchw 5y ago
Hardware should be designed to be resilient to broken software to whatever degree possible. And then still, warranty should cover defects in the face of modified software. The SDK is not some hack downloaded from some shady website. It’s not a third-party unauthorized tool. This isn’t like, “I transformed my Tesla into an ICE car and then asked them to fix it.” It’s like, “I paired my phone via Bluetooth to the entertainment system and now they won’t fix my defective AC.” Yes it’s hard to prove that hardware wasn’t broken by broken, unauthorized software modifications. Is there even a small amount of evidence that the warranty burden caused by software modifications is significant? Many stores are happy to cover occasional consumer error even if they’re not actually liable to, and that is SURELY more common than firmware modifications. Not to mention the directions this could go into. Oh, malware exploited our phones and then modified the system firmware? Sorry, your warranty is void because you ran unofficial firmware, goodbye. (Obviously, and especially in the last case, if you do break your device on your own, or someone else does, then of course manufacturer warranties do not cover that. That’s a whole different wheelhouse. But your warranty should not be entirely void over software. This is the same as those technically-not-legally-binding “warranty void if removed” stickers everyone unfortunately tolerates.)

e2le 5y ago

Is that even legal? It seems similar to the "warranty void" stickers which are nothing more than an illegal scare tactic that many individuals are conned into believing. https://www.ifixit.com/News/11748/warranty-stickers-are-illegal https://www.ifixit.com/News/11748/warranty-stickers-are-ille... https://www.ifixit.com/News/15464/warranty-voiding-stickers-are-illegal-but-these-companies-are-still-using-them https://www.ifixit.com/News/15464/warranty-voiding-stickers-...

judge2020 5y ago
Even if it's illegal it doesn't override user protection laws, so the statement has no effect and they'd need to prove your SDK usage caused an issue with the product to legally deny warranty.
kahrl 5y ago
It's not just a scare tactic, it's how these companies operate. They will illegally refuse to service products they have an obligation to. Until there are massive class action lawsuits, this isn't changing.
kotaKat 5y ago
The contract is under Japanese jurisdiction. Does anyone here know Japanese law in regards to something like this?
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  No, I don’t think that’s how that works. Your contracts with your customers is under the jurisdiction of where your customers live, not where your company is headquartered. It would be way too easy to side step any law they wished that way. Plus, must camera manufacturers sell through an american subsidiary. I know thats how Canon works.

cosmotic 5y ago

Regardless of their written policy or silly warranty void stickers, the law dictates the warranty still covers all components not modified or damaged by the consumer. You might have to fight in court, but thats the law.

DannyBee 5y ago

Even in consumer places like the US, this is generally illegal. They would not be able to refuse warranty service without showing that your use of the SDK was the reason the camera failed (and the burden would be on them). IE they can't say "Yes, the lens popped out because it was defective, but you used the SDK so tough crap"

tomaskafka 5y ago
Funnily I had exactly this happen with HTC One - yes, your phone camera has degraded inside a warranty period and all photos have purple fade, but since you unlocked the bootloader, you're out of luck, bye.
- DannyBee 5y ago
  I've had good luck without having to resort to legal process. But some companies are recalcitrant about it.

jug 5y ago

Good luck enforcing this in an EU court lol

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]