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> I don’t want stupid personal expressions, I want meaningful or beautiful or somehow useful. I guess I feel that improving our world, ending war, making our s

> I don’t want stupid personal expressions, I want meaningful or beautiful or somehow useful. I guess I feel that improving our world, ending war, making our society more just and fair, these are meaningful, useful, and beautiful things to do. They might be some of the most meaningful things actually. > It was counterproductive and distracting and wasted valuable time that we could use to do something better. This is an argument about context. Security IS important, I imagine we'd both agree, but maybe not in that specific situation. Like if I bring up climate change while we're rushing to the hospital after a car accident. Climate change is a real and important issue, but right now it's a distraction. So is an open source website an inappropriate context to indicate support for movements or disapproval of others? I don't think so, but if you do calling it "virtue signaling" isn't what you mean, and is actually a counterproductive distraction.

blueflow 5y ago
None of the signalling achieves anything. Its annoying, the signalling people really stand out. Seeing them doing the "Notice me, I'm standing for the right thing, im a good person!"-move makes me cringe. I wish they would stop.
- kennywinker 5y ago
  > None of the signalling achieves anything This is just false. Some signaling achieves nothing, but there's plenty of signaling that has caused individuals to change their behavior, politicians to pass laws, and corporations to change their products. The thing is it's basically impossible to tell which is the useful signaling and which is shouting into the void, even as the person signaling the signals. Which drop filled the bucket? You seem to find it annoying because you think it's being done just to SEEM good, rather than to BE good... but when it comes to issues we don't have direct control of, there's not much difference. I can ACT on my belief that texting and driving is a terrible thing to do all I want, but it doesn't stop anyone else from doing it. The only small piece of influence I have over others is to signal that I believe it's wrong whenever it's appropriate. That and lobby for tougher fines (by signaling to politicians) and technological solutions (again, by signaling to corporations). None of this is to say you can't criticize specific gestures as being empty - but to say signaling is always empty is just false.
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- dwaltrip 5y ago
  How do you know that it achieves nothing? Genuinely curious.
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prepend 5y ago
> I guess I feel that improving our world, ending war, making our society more just and fair, these are meaningful, useful, and beautiful things to do. They might be some of the most meaningful things actually. I feel that way too. I want all those things. Adding “FreeUkraine” or “BLM” doesn’t do that. I don’t think virtue signaling is that big of a problem, but adding these phrases does nothing more than signal. I don’t think it’s productive to call out virtual signaling in that I would never submit a PR to complain or remove. But I definitely notice it and it seems stupid. I don’t spend a lot of time thinking about it but a second or two while reading docs doesn’t make me think more highly of someone. I think cynically it just seems like people say this instead of doing meaningful things.
- kennywinker 5y ago
  One thing you might be coloring your perception, is the lack of visibility into other actions. Just because a person posts #blm and it’s largely a symbolic gesture and doesn’t have a big impact, doesn’t mean they didn’t take other more tangible steps - donations, calling their representatives, boycotts, etc. but you wouldn’t know about those. So every time you see the gesture you see inaction, when sometimes the gesture is just the tip of an iceberg of dedicated action.
rnd0 5y ago
>I guess I feel that improving our world, ending war, making our society more just and fair, these are meaningful, useful, and beautiful things to do. They would be, if they actually made meaningful strides to accomplish those objectives beyond stroking the dev's ego.

blueflow 5y ago

None of the signalling achieves anything. Its annoying, the signalling people really stand out. Seeing them doing the "Notice me, I'm standing for the right thing, im a good person!"-move makes me cringe. I wish they would stop.

kennywinker 5y ago
> None of the signalling achieves anything This is just false. Some signaling achieves nothing, but there's plenty of signaling that has caused individuals to change their behavior, politicians to pass laws, and corporations to change their products. The thing is it's basically impossible to tell which is the useful signaling and which is shouting into the void, even as the person signaling the signals. Which drop filled the bucket? You seem to find it annoying because you think it's being done just to SEEM good, rather than to BE good... but when it comes to issues we don't have direct control of, there's not much difference. I can ACT on my belief that texting and driving is a terrible thing to do all I want, but it doesn't stop anyone else from doing it. The only small piece of influence I have over others is to signal that I believe it's wrong whenever it's appropriate. That and lobby for tougher fines (by signaling to politicians) and technological solutions (again, by signaling to corporations). None of this is to say you can't criticize specific gestures as being empty - but to say signaling is always empty is just false.
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dwaltrip 5y ago
How do you know that it achieves nothing? Genuinely curious.
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prepend 5y ago

> I guess I feel that improving our world, ending war, making our society more just and fair, these are meaningful, useful, and beautiful things to do. They might be some of the most meaningful things actually. I feel that way too. I want all those things. Adding “FreeUkraine” or “BLM” doesn’t do that. I don’t think virtue signaling is that big of a problem, but adding these phrases does nothing more than signal. I don’t think it’s productive to call out virtual signaling in that I would never submit a PR to complain or remove. But I definitely notice it and it seems stupid. I don’t spend a lot of time thinking about it but a second or two while reading docs doesn’t make me think more highly of someone. I think cynically it just seems like people say this instead of doing meaningful things.

kennywinker 5y ago
One thing you might be coloring your perception, is the lack of visibility into other actions. Just because a person posts #blm and it’s largely a symbolic gesture and doesn’t have a big impact, doesn’t mean they didn’t take other more tangible steps - donations, calling their representatives, boycotts, etc. but you wouldn’t know about those. So every time you see the gesture you see inaction, when sometimes the gesture is just the tip of an iceberg of dedicated action.

rnd0 5y ago

>I guess I feel that improving our world, ending war, making our society more just and fair, these are meaningful, useful, and beautiful things to do. They would be, if they actually made meaningful strides to accomplish those objectives beyond stroking the dev's ego.