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Now I feel bad for crows. They're in the same MALIGNANTLY USELESS boat as humans. > “For the rest of the earth’s organisms, existence is relatively uncomplica

Now I feel bad for crows. They're in the same MALIGNANTLY USELESS boat as humans. > “For the rest of the earth’s organisms, existence is relatively uncomplicated. Their lives are about three things: survival, reproduction, death—and nothing else. But we know too much to content ourselves with surviving, reproducing, dying—and nothing else. We know we are alive and know we will die. We also know we will suffer during our lives before suffering—slowly or quickly—as we draw near to death. This is the knowledge we “enjoy” as the most intelligent organisms to gush from the womb of nature. And being so, we feel shortchanged if there is nothing else for us than to survive, reproduce, and die. We want there to be more to it than that, or to think there is. This is the tragedy: Consciousness has forced us into the paradoxical position of striving to be unself-conscious of what we are—hunks of spoiling flesh on disintegrating bones.” – Thomas Ligotti

FredPret 5y ago
That Ligotti chap really managed to put the darkest possible spin on the greatest possible miracle - consciousness. Our brains represent a step change in the timeline of complexity in the universe, from subatomic things spontaneously coalescing into atoms, all the way up to Thomas the paranoid android. Instead of being depressed that we will get hurt and die, let's be happy that we will be able to experience many interesting and wonderful things, many of which can be quite pleasant and meaningful.
- NoGravitas 5y ago
  “One cringes to hear scientists cooing over the universe or any part thereof like schoolgirls over-heated by their first crush. From the studies of Krafft-Ebbing onward, we know that it is possible to become excited about anything—from shins to shoehorns. But it would be nice if just one of these gushing eggheads would step back and, as a concession to objectivity, speak the truth: THERE IS NOTHING INNATELY IMPRESSIVE ABOUT THE UNIVERSE OR ANYTHING IN IT.” ― Thomas Ligotti, The Conspiracy Against the Human Race
  - fourthark 5y ago
    Isn't that just saying that impressiveness is not objective?
  - omnicognate 5y ago
    "Objectivity", "INNATELY IMPRESSIVE". "Impressiveness" is about the most subjective thing I can think of. It's literally about whether it impresses someone. I've never heard of this Ligotti chap, but these quotes are not selling me on him.
    - throwanem 5y ago
      Ligotti's body of work constitutes perhaps the longest suicide note, and perhaps also the one most "writerly" in its composition, thus far in human history. That the act has yet to be consummated detracts little from this accomplishment, but one may to no less use or benefit spend time perusing road accident footage.
      - groby_b 5y ago
        I'd argue that the things he despises so much are the exact same things that prevent consummation, so at a fundamental level, I doubt the soundness of his reasoning.
        morelisp 5y ago
        It would be a sign of callowness to bemoan the fact that pessimistic writers do not rate and may be reprehended in both good conscience and good company. Some critics of the pessimist often think they have his back to the wall when they blithely jeer, “If that is how this fellow feels, he should either kill himself or be decried as a hypocrite.” That the pessimist should kill himself in order to live up to his ideas may be counterattacked as betraying such a crass intellect that it does not deserve a response. Yet it is not much of a chore to produce one. Simply because someone has reached the conclusion that the amount of suffering in this world is enough that anyone would be better off never having been born does not mean that by force of logic or sincerity he must kill himself. It only means he has concluded that the amount of suffering in this world is enough that anyone would be better off never having been born. Others may disagree on this point as it pleases them, but they must accept that if they believe themselves to have a stronger case than the pessimist, then they are mistaken. Naturally, there are pessimists who do kill themselves, but nothing obliges them to kill themselves or live with the mark of the hypocrite on their brow. Voluntary death might seem a thoroughly negative course of action, but it is not as simple as that. Every negation is adulterated or stealthily launched by an affirmative spirit. An unequivocal “no” cannot be uttered or acted upon. Lucifer’s last words in heaven may have been “Non serviam,” but none has served the Almighty so dutifully, since His sideshow in the clouds would never draw any customers if it were not for the main attraction of the devil’s hell on earth. Only catatonics and coma patients can persevere in a dignified withdrawal from life’s rattle and hum. Without a “yes” in our hearts, nothing would be done. And to be done with our existence en masse would be the most ambitious affirmation of all.
- jotm 5y ago
  Well, it's hard to be happy when it requires you to actually be able to do what you want to do. Social hierarchy, resources and even brain chemistry are not in everyone's favour. Contentness can be learned, though. Or just use that brainpower and create medication that tricks the primitive parts of the brain into being happy. Profit!
  - antisthenes 5y ago
    > Or just use that brainpower and create medication that tricks the primitive parts of the brain into being happy. Profit! Thankfully, nature already did that for us. It's THC and Alcohol.
  - NoGravitas 5y ago
    “There seems to be an inborn drive in all human beings not to live in a steady emotional state, which would suggest that such a state is not tolerable to most people. Why else would someone succumb to the attractions of romantic love more than once? Didn’t they learn their lesson the first time or the tenth time or the twentieth time? And it’s the same old lesson: everything in this life—I repeat, everything—is more trouble than it’s worth. And simply being alive is the basic trouble. This is something that is more recognized in Eastern societies than in the West. There’s a minor tradition in Greek philosophy that instructs us to seek a state of equanimity rather than one of ecstasy, but it never really caught on for obvious reasons. Buddhism advises its practitioners not to seek highs or lows but to follow a middle path to personal salvation from the painful cravings of the average sensual life, which is why it was pretty much reviled by the masses and mutated into forms more suited to human drives and desires. It seems evident that very few people can simply sit still. Children spin in circles until they collapse with dizziness.” ― Thomas Ligotti
  - pmoriarty 5y ago
    Happiness is not getting what you want, it's wanting what you get.
- gpderetta 5y ago
  > That Ligotti chap really managed to put the darkest possible spin on the greatest possible miracle - consciousness I think that Blindsight and its author Peter Watts have a stronger claim :)
  - asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
    In the counterfactual universe where we had strong evidence of higher cognition sans consciousness, sure. But it's pure speculation that anything like his space critters can exist in real life. Perhaps so, perhaps not. Fortunately, we will never know.
throwanem 5y ago
Well, Ligotti would certainly know from malignant uselessness. Perhaps if he took a little more trouble for self-reflection he would less often perpetrate it.
nemosaltat 5y ago
Homo sapiens sapiens: Man who knows that he knows. What does he know? That he’s going to die.
- tremon 5y ago
  No, that's homo sapiens moribundus
  - groby_b 5y ago
    There's no other kind.
WinterMount223 5y ago
The selfish genes strike again. Humans (animals) are machines evolved to replicate their genes, who don’t care how happy or unhappy their replication machines are.
titzer 5y ago
"Oh, Thomas, silly ape. It's not about you." - Sincerely, this amazing universe that could contemplate itself using your brain, if you'd stop feeling so bad about yourself
blueprint 5y ago
What if a thing with consciousness is also the only living thing which can accumulate a "self" that can propagate through lifetimes? The principle of how plants produce seeds would be the same although obviously the systems are different. To start with, plants pass on their "selves" through their "bodies" and seeds, but human children are obviously distinct selves, therefore, perhaps we ought to start searching for a physical system where a human self exists. It's an unconfirmed and probably foolhardy assumption that the brain alone creates and supports the existence or propagation of consciousness. What else in the universe is capable of doing what we already attribute to the physical capabilities of the brain as pertaining to what we call the physical (e.g. electromagnetic) activities of consciousness?
- technothrasher 5y ago
  > It's an unconfirmed and probably foolhardy assumption that the brain alone creates and supports the existence or propagation of consciousness. This is not an assumption that science makes. However, we have never observed consciousness in anything that does not have a brain, and physically altering a brain can cause fundamental changes in consciousness. So, until there is evidence that consciousness is not tied directly to a brain, its the best working model we have. Suppositions to the contrary are interesting but meaningless without being supported by evidence.
  - blueprint 5y ago
    "we have never observed consciousness in anything that does not have a brain" how would you measure consciousness?
causasui 5y ago
See also: the Ernest Becker quote featured in my profile. The Denial of Death was a life-changing read for me.
bobro 5y ago
jesus ligotti. go look at a sunset. eat some ice cream. hug a loved one. good lord.
52-6F-62 5y ago
"Bah, humbug!"
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
amatecha 5y ago
nice, I like this. thanks for sharing (and the later quote further into the thread). it's such irony that the "miraculous" consciousness we experience is simultaneously a curse ensuring direct awareness of our mortality and [depending on opinion] triviality.
glaslong 5y ago
This is advanced level edgelording

FredPret 5y ago

That Ligotti chap really managed to put the darkest possible spin on the greatest possible miracle - consciousness. Our brains represent a step change in the timeline of complexity in the universe, from subatomic things spontaneously coalescing into atoms, all the way up to Thomas the paranoid android. Instead of being depressed that we will get hurt and die, let's be happy that we will be able to experience many interesting and wonderful things, many of which can be quite pleasant and meaningful.

NoGravitas 5y ago
“One cringes to hear scientists cooing over the universe or any part thereof like schoolgirls over-heated by their first crush. From the studies of Krafft-Ebbing onward, we know that it is possible to become excited about anything—from shins to shoehorns. But it would be nice if just one of these gushing eggheads would step back and, as a concession to objectivity, speak the truth: THERE IS NOTHING INNATELY IMPRESSIVE ABOUT THE UNIVERSE OR ANYTHING IN IT.” ― Thomas Ligotti, The Conspiracy Against the Human Race
- fourthark 5y ago
  Isn't that just saying that impressiveness is not objective?
- omnicognate 5y ago
  "Objectivity", "INNATELY IMPRESSIVE". "Impressiveness" is about the most subjective thing I can think of. It's literally about whether it impresses someone. I've never heard of this Ligotti chap, but these quotes are not selling me on him.
  - throwanem 5y ago
    Ligotti's body of work constitutes perhaps the longest suicide note, and perhaps also the one most "writerly" in its composition, thus far in human history. That the act has yet to be consummated detracts little from this accomplishment, but one may to no less use or benefit spend time perusing road accident footage.
    - groby_b 5y ago
      I'd argue that the things he despises so much are the exact same things that prevent consummation, so at a fundamental level, I doubt the soundness of his reasoning.
      - morelisp 5y ago
        It would be a sign of callowness to bemoan the fact that pessimistic writers do not rate and may be reprehended in both good conscience and good company. Some critics of the pessimist often think they have his back to the wall when they blithely jeer, “If that is how this fellow feels, he should either kill himself or be decried as a hypocrite.” That the pessimist should kill himself in order to live up to his ideas may be counterattacked as betraying such a crass intellect that it does not deserve a response. Yet it is not much of a chore to produce one. Simply because someone has reached the conclusion that the amount of suffering in this world is enough that anyone would be better off never having been born does not mean that by force of logic or sincerity he must kill himself. It only means he has concluded that the amount of suffering in this world is enough that anyone would be better off never having been born. Others may disagree on this point as it pleases them, but they must accept that if they believe themselves to have a stronger case than the pessimist, then they are mistaken. Naturally, there are pessimists who do kill themselves, but nothing obliges them to kill themselves or live with the mark of the hypocrite on their brow. Voluntary death might seem a thoroughly negative course of action, but it is not as simple as that. Every negation is adulterated or stealthily launched by an affirmative spirit. An unequivocal “no” cannot be uttered or acted upon. Lucifer’s last words in heaven may have been “Non serviam,” but none has served the Almighty so dutifully, since His sideshow in the clouds would never draw any customers if it were not for the main attraction of the devil’s hell on earth. Only catatonics and coma patients can persevere in a dignified withdrawal from life’s rattle and hum. Without a “yes” in our hearts, nothing would be done. And to be done with our existence en masse would be the most ambitious affirmation of all.
jotm 5y ago
Well, it's hard to be happy when it requires you to actually be able to do what you want to do. Social hierarchy, resources and even brain chemistry are not in everyone's favour. Contentness can be learned, though. Or just use that brainpower and create medication that tricks the primitive parts of the brain into being happy. Profit!
- antisthenes 5y ago
  > Or just use that brainpower and create medication that tricks the primitive parts of the brain into being happy. Profit! Thankfully, nature already did that for us. It's THC and Alcohol.
- NoGravitas 5y ago
  “There seems to be an inborn drive in all human beings not to live in a steady emotional state, which would suggest that such a state is not tolerable to most people. Why else would someone succumb to the attractions of romantic love more than once? Didn’t they learn their lesson the first time or the tenth time or the twentieth time? And it’s the same old lesson: everything in this life—I repeat, everything—is more trouble than it’s worth. And simply being alive is the basic trouble. This is something that is more recognized in Eastern societies than in the West. There’s a minor tradition in Greek philosophy that instructs us to seek a state of equanimity rather than one of ecstasy, but it never really caught on for obvious reasons. Buddhism advises its practitioners not to seek highs or lows but to follow a middle path to personal salvation from the painful cravings of the average sensual life, which is why it was pretty much reviled by the masses and mutated into forms more suited to human drives and desires. It seems evident that very few people can simply sit still. Children spin in circles until they collapse with dizziness.” ― Thomas Ligotti
- pmoriarty 5y ago
  Happiness is not getting what you want, it's wanting what you get.
gpderetta 5y ago
> That Ligotti chap really managed to put the darkest possible spin on the greatest possible miracle - consciousness I think that Blindsight and its author Peter Watts have a stronger claim :)
- asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
  In the counterfactual universe where we had strong evidence of higher cognition sans consciousness, sure. But it's pure speculation that anything like his space critters can exist in real life. Perhaps so, perhaps not. Fortunately, we will never know.

throwanem 5y ago

Well, Ligotti would certainly know from malignant uselessness. Perhaps if he took a little more trouble for self-reflection he would less often perpetrate it.

nemosaltat 5y ago

Homo sapiens sapiens: Man who knows that he knows. What does he know? That he’s going to die.

tremon 5y ago
No, that's homo sapiens moribundus
- groby_b 5y ago
  There's no other kind.

WinterMount223 5y ago

The selfish genes strike again. Humans (animals) are machines evolved to replicate their genes, who don’t care how happy or unhappy their replication machines are.

titzer 5y ago

"Oh, Thomas, silly ape. It's not about you." - Sincerely, this amazing universe that could contemplate itself using your brain, if you'd stop feeling so bad about yourself

blueprint 5y ago

What if a thing with consciousness is also the only living thing which can accumulate a "self" that can propagate through lifetimes? The principle of how plants produce seeds would be the same although obviously the systems are different. To start with, plants pass on their "selves" through their "bodies" and seeds, but human children are obviously distinct selves, therefore, perhaps we ought to start searching for a physical system where a human self exists. It's an unconfirmed and probably foolhardy assumption that the brain alone creates and supports the existence or propagation of consciousness. What else in the universe is capable of doing what we already attribute to the physical capabilities of the brain as pertaining to what we call the physical (e.g. electromagnetic) activities of consciousness?

technothrasher 5y ago
> It's an unconfirmed and probably foolhardy assumption that the brain alone creates and supports the existence or propagation of consciousness. This is not an assumption that science makes. However, we have never observed consciousness in anything that does not have a brain, and physically altering a brain can cause fundamental changes in consciousness. So, until there is evidence that consciousness is not tied directly to a brain, its the best working model we have. Suppositions to the contrary are interesting but meaningless without being supported by evidence.
- blueprint 5y ago
  "we have never observed consciousness in anything that does not have a brain" how would you measure consciousness?

causasui 5y ago

See also: the Ernest Becker quote featured in my profile. The Denial of Death was a life-changing read for me.

bobro 5y ago

jesus ligotti. go look at a sunset. eat some ice cream. hug a loved one. good lord.

52-6F-62 5y ago

"Bah, humbug!"

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

amatecha 5y ago

nice, I like this. thanks for sharing (and the later quote further into the thread). it's such irony that the "miraculous" consciousness we experience is simultaneously a curse ensuring direct awareness of our mortality and [depending on opinion] triviality.

glaslong 5y ago

This is advanced level edgelording