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After ISIS rose I gave up the idea that countries like Syria, Iraq etc can ever become anything more than "hellholes", at least in my lifetime. Certain areas li

After ISIS rose I gave up the idea that countries like Syria, Iraq etc can ever become anything more than "hellholes", at least in my lifetime. Certain areas like Kurdistan excepted (and I hope and support their recognization as a state), but in general there will always be one strongman or another. But Ukraine was different (and I hope it still will be), turning from the world of the strongman and toward Europe and modern freedoms. It was on the same trajectory that Poland went on 18 years ago: a massively better life for the average, ordinary person. Ukraine had troubles, but those were solvable because that is what they wanted. All of that is now ground up along with so many children under the ruble in the streets because Putin had to establish a slightly larger state. So when Ukraine was killed, not only was the civilians there massacered, so was the future of the entire country or at least pushed another generation into the future. I hope neither of the perpretators ever make it the Hague, a few years in prison is nowhere near enough punishment.

whimsicalism 5y ago
All this comment shows to me is you knew very little about Syria & Iraq. The cultural & population centers of Syria were never taken by ISIS and Damascus prior to 2011 would not have felt as "hellhole"-esque as I think you are imagining. > turning from the world of the strongman and toward Europe and modern freedoms Towards Europe, certainly, but also towards nationalism - undoubtedly. It is not a "modern freedom" to ban minority languages from schools and government, restrict regional autonomy, etc.
- geoka9 5y ago
  > to ban minority languages from schools Please, it's not a ban. The relevant law only applies to state-funded schools and makes sure that students who don't speak Ukrainian gradually learn it over the years and start using it in school: _https://ukrainian-studies.ca/2020/08/01/ukraines-russian-language-secondary-schools-switch-to-ukrainian-language-instruction-a-challenge/ https://ukrainian-studies.ca/2020/08/01/ukraines-russian-lan... If Ukraine hasn't been the target of Russian territorial expansionism, we could argue that this law is overreaching. However Russia had claimed the right to "defend Russian-speaking people" outside of Russia before invading Ukraine in 2014 (the law was passed in 2017). Under these conditions, passing such a law was practically a question of self-preservation.
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    Your link is broken.
    - geoka9 5y ago
      Thanks, updated.
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    > Please, it's not a ban. The relevant law only applies to state-funded schools and makes sure that students who don't speak Ukrainian gradually learn it over the years and start using it in school: Really? Reading your source it seems that it explicitly states "Ukrainian as the only means of instruction in schools after the primary division." Saying that this only applies to "state-funded schools" may be true, but you're papering over the fact that your own source indicates that fewer than 1% of students attend non-public schools. From your own source: > The Law determines three patterns for Ukrainian-language instruction in secondary schools of Ukraine. The first concerns indigenous peoples such as the Crimean Tatars, who have the right to be educated in their own language, with Ukrainian taught as a separate subject, at any school stage. The second pattern addresses Ukraine’s national minorities whose languages are official languages of the EU. The primary school division is available for them in their minority language (with Ukrainian as a separate subject), while higher divisions see a graduated expansion of Ukrainian-language instruction—from twenty percent in fifth year to forty percent in ninth year of middle (junior high) school and to sixty percent of all subjects during the three years of high school. The third pattern applies to “other minorities,” i.e., Russians and Russian-speaking Ukrainians who attend Russian-language secondary schools. For them, Ukrainian-language instruction should be at a minimum of eighty percent in both middle and high schools, with the opportunity to have Russian taught as a subject or elective. The Law also clearly states that these provisions apply to state-funded schools only and entitles all private schools to a free choice of their language of instruction; nevertheless, private schools must teach the Ukrainian language and ensure that their students acquire the fluency standard defined by the state. Seems from reading this that Russian is specifically targeted and proscribed from being taught in schools. Keep in mind there are entire regions of Ukraine where Russian is the predominant language. And we wonder why people in Crimea wanted to leave after Euromaidan... > Under these conditions, passing such a law was practically a question of self-preservation. By eliminating Russian speaking people in Ukraine? Not a great justification.

whimsicalism 5y ago

All this comment shows to me is you knew very little about Syria & Iraq. The cultural & population centers of Syria were never taken by ISIS and Damascus prior to 2011 would not have felt as "hellhole"-esque as I think you are imagining. > turning from the world of the strongman and toward Europe and modern freedoms Towards Europe, certainly, but also towards nationalism - undoubtedly. It is not a "modern freedom" to ban minority languages from schools and government, restrict regional autonomy, etc.

geoka9 5y ago
> to ban minority languages from schools Please, it's not a ban. The relevant law only applies to state-funded schools and makes sure that students who don't speak Ukrainian gradually learn it over the years and start using it in school: _https://ukrainian-studies.ca/2020/08/01/ukraines-russian-language-secondary-schools-switch-to-ukrainian-language-instruction-a-challenge/ https://ukrainian-studies.ca/2020/08/01/ukraines-russian-lan... If Ukraine hasn't been the target of Russian territorial expansionism, we could argue that this law is overreaching. However Russia had claimed the right to "defend Russian-speaking people" outside of Russia before invading Ukraine in 2014 (the law was passed in 2017). Under these conditions, passing such a law was practically a question of self-preservation.
- whimsicalism 5y ago
  Your link is broken.
  - geoka9 5y ago
    Thanks, updated.
- whimsicalism 5y ago
  > Please, it's not a ban. The relevant law only applies to state-funded schools and makes sure that students who don't speak Ukrainian gradually learn it over the years and start using it in school: Really? Reading your source it seems that it explicitly states "Ukrainian as the only means of instruction in schools after the primary division." Saying that this only applies to "state-funded schools" may be true, but you're papering over the fact that your own source indicates that fewer than 1% of students attend non-public schools. From your own source: > The Law determines three patterns for Ukrainian-language instruction in secondary schools of Ukraine. The first concerns indigenous peoples such as the Crimean Tatars, who have the right to be educated in their own language, with Ukrainian taught as a separate subject, at any school stage. The second pattern addresses Ukraine’s national minorities whose languages are official languages of the EU. The primary school division is available for them in their minority language (with Ukrainian as a separate subject), while higher divisions see a graduated expansion of Ukrainian-language instruction—from twenty percent in fifth year to forty percent in ninth year of middle (junior high) school and to sixty percent of all subjects during the three years of high school. The third pattern applies to “other minorities,” i.e., Russians and Russian-speaking Ukrainians who attend Russian-language secondary schools. For them, Ukrainian-language instruction should be at a minimum of eighty percent in both middle and high schools, with the opportunity to have Russian taught as a subject or elective. The Law also clearly states that these provisions apply to state-funded schools only and entitles all private schools to a free choice of their language of instruction; nevertheless, private schools must teach the Ukrainian language and ensure that their students acquire the fluency standard defined by the state. Seems from reading this that Russian is specifically targeted and proscribed from being taught in schools. Keep in mind there are entire regions of Ukraine where Russian is the predominant language. And we wonder why people in Crimea wanted to leave after Euromaidan... > Under these conditions, passing such a law was practically a question of self-preservation. By eliminating Russian speaking people in Ukraine? Not a great justification.