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I would probably use the word "service" and I specifically don't mean "web based service". If someone is providing a service (for money?) then you should have t

I would probably use the word "service" and I specifically don't mean "web based service". If someone is providing a service (for money?) then you should have the right to speak to a human about issues with your service. That seems reasonable to me.

dmd 5y ago
But people are specifically saying it doesn't have to be for money. If I've made some open source tool that people use for free, do I really need to provide phone support - also for free?
- rkangel 5y ago
  You're not providing a service though are you? You're providing intellectual property for people to do things with.
  - dmd 5y ago
    And if I throw an instance of it up on my web server that runs on a raspberry pi next to the cat litter in my basement? Now do I need to provide phone support to the world?
    - DiggyJohnson 5y ago
      Minimum headcount requirement would render this irrelevant, and make sense in the spirit of the regulation.
sokoloff 5y ago
If that is important to you, what prevents you from only doing business with companies who will operate on terms you find agreeable? Is it necessary to force others to avoid low-touch, low-cost companies/services that they appear to be perfectly happy with?
- rkangel 5y ago
  The varying answers to this are effectively political positions. I would suggest that in this case (like in several others) competition is insufficient to guarantee that I have that choice. If I have a GSuite account, but I think that Google's support is rubbish who else can I go to that provides a similar level of service? To use another example - there are various consumer protection laws in the UK and EU. They cover all sorts of things like guaranteeing safety standards and requiring companies to accept returns. They have arisen over time to cover situations where consumers aren't capable of making the decision (e.g. safety which is complex or you might not find out for 10 years) or it's not something companies compete on but it's something you want for customers (e.g. returns). Different political approaches, such as the more liberal one in the US leaves it more up to competition, the idea being that competition provides for consumers and it's easier to grow and operate businesses so the economy flourishes and everyone does well that way. I'd suggest that it's not a perfect system and that you have to fill in the gaps. This is why America is rediscovering the union - in theory companies compete for the job market. If one job is incredibly shitty then employees can leave and get another one. This should provide competitive advantage to companies to make jobs non shitty and companies that don't can't hire and die out. In practice, for reasons that I don't fully understand, that hasn't worked out. Covid has been a trigger for some movement here and therefore some pressure, but it hasn't solved all the problems. Instead an alternate approach can work where employees can bargain collectively.
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    If no one offers GSuite or a similar competitor to you under terms that you find acceptable, do you have a right to demand that they offer “just like GSuite, only with an additional telephone hotline”? For me, that answer is a clear no, in that you are not (and should not be) guaranteed that the market provides you such a choice nor does it offer you the choice to deny others the freedom to choose GSuite as it sits today in features and pricing.
    - thfuran 5y ago
      Should we have minimum wage, FDA certification, or workplace safety requirements or should we let the market sort all that out too?

dmd 5y ago

But people are specifically saying it doesn't have to be for money. If I've made some open source tool that people use for free, do I really need to provide phone support - also for free?

rkangel 5y ago
You're not providing a service though are you? You're providing intellectual property for people to do things with.
- dmd 5y ago
  And if I throw an instance of it up on my web server that runs on a raspberry pi next to the cat litter in my basement? Now do I need to provide phone support to the world?
  - DiggyJohnson 5y ago
    Minimum headcount requirement would render this irrelevant, and make sense in the spirit of the regulation.

sokoloff 5y ago

If that is important to you, what prevents you from only doing business with companies who will operate on terms you find agreeable? Is it necessary to force others to avoid low-touch, low-cost companies/services that they appear to be perfectly happy with?

rkangel 5y ago
The varying answers to this are effectively political positions. I would suggest that in this case (like in several others) competition is insufficient to guarantee that I have that choice. If I have a GSuite account, but I think that Google's support is rubbish who else can I go to that provides a similar level of service? To use another example - there are various consumer protection laws in the UK and EU. They cover all sorts of things like guaranteeing safety standards and requiring companies to accept returns. They have arisen over time to cover situations where consumers aren't capable of making the decision (e.g. safety which is complex or you might not find out for 10 years) or it's not something companies compete on but it's something you want for customers (e.g. returns). Different political approaches, such as the more liberal one in the US leaves it more up to competition, the idea being that competition provides for consumers and it's easier to grow and operate businesses so the economy flourishes and everyone does well that way. I'd suggest that it's not a perfect system and that you have to fill in the gaps. This is why America is rediscovering the union - in theory companies compete for the job market. If one job is incredibly shitty then employees can leave and get another one. This should provide competitive advantage to companies to make jobs non shitty and companies that don't can't hire and die out. In practice, for reasons that I don't fully understand, that hasn't worked out. Covid has been a trigger for some movement here and therefore some pressure, but it hasn't solved all the problems. Instead an alternate approach can work where employees can bargain collectively.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  If no one offers GSuite or a similar competitor to you under terms that you find acceptable, do you have a right to demand that they offer “just like GSuite, only with an additional telephone hotline”? For me, that answer is a clear no, in that you are not (and should not be) guaranteed that the market provides you such a choice nor does it offer you the choice to deny others the freedom to choose GSuite as it sits today in features and pricing.
  - thfuran 5y ago
    Should we have minimum wage, FDA certification, or workplace safety requirements or should we let the market sort all that out too?