7 ms·

I understand Israel has a booming population: https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/israel-population https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/israel-p

I understand Israel has a booming population: https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/israel-population https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/israel-populatio... Israel is also booming economically as it is the 24th in terms of GDP per capita now and rising: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi... Israel has the 2nd largest per capita VC investment in the world: https://news.crunchbase.com/news/countries-most-startup-investment/ https://news.crunchbase.com/news/countries-most-startup-inve... What are they doing that others are not?

throwaway6734 5y ago
Iirc Israel's large Orthodox community is responsible for most of the growth https://www.timesofisrael.com/haredi-population-growing-twice-as-fast-as-total-israeli-population-report/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/haredi-population-growing-twic...
refurb 5y ago
Combination of religious groups that favor big families plus immigration from low income countries where large families are still commmon?
hunglee2 5y ago
two factors in Israel might explain 1) immigration - of course Israel grants the right of every Jewish person to live in Israel, in fact paid an incentive to relocate. Presumably there a constant inflow from the Jewish diaspora and their descendants which might supplement the population 2) orthodox families, I'm guessing, have outsized families. Where women do not participate in the market economy, they end up having lots of kids instead Again, no idea on the percentage contributions of either of these cases, but it might go some way toward explaining Israel's countervailing trend!
- unmole 5y ago
  > Where women do not participate in the market economy It's not just women. Somewhere around half of Haredi men do not work.
  - User23 5y ago
    > Somewhere around half of Haredi men do not work. Or, stated less pejoratively, somewhere around half of Haredi men devote their lives to scholarship.
    - Siira 5y ago
      Scholarship which has produced what findings?
    - unmole 5y ago
      Or stated more practically, somewhere around half of Haredi men are given handouts by the state to do no productive work.
      - scsilver 5y ago
        Israel is a lifeboat not an office.
        unmole 5y ago
        Well the boat won't be able to go anywhere if an increasing number of the occupants refuse paddle. Also, gentle reminder that more Jews live in the US than in Israel.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - tsol 5y ago
        I mean I'm not a huge fan of Israel due to their history, but to say that the religious scholar class in Israel does no productive work is strange. Just because they don't make anything you can sell for a profit, doesn't mean they don't add very real value to people's lives
- liveoneggs 5y ago
  I encountered (but did not shake hands with! ;) a lot of conservative women with 5+ kids in the workforce while in Israel. Much more than men, where I encountered less strict observance. It was a pretty interesting culture difference.
satronaut 5y ago
- jtbayly 5y ago
  What in the world? They were in education jobs until Covid, and now they’re in commerce jobs, but they’re obviously not productive members of society because of their religion?!?
  - unmole 5y ago
    > they’re obviously not productive members of society because of their religion? As shocking as it might sound, yes.
    - jtbayly 5y ago
      Well when there are still workers in Israel because of them you can come back and apologize for claiming they weren’t being productive. It’s laughable to claim that people producing literal other people aren’t being productive.
      - unmole 5y ago
        Again over half of Haredi men choose to live off state handouts. Their women are anyways treated as second class citizens. If this remains the case, with their increasing numbers they will need more handouts which paid for by the rest of the population. It's not hard to see why this isn't sustainable. TFR amongst secular Jewish women in Israel is 2.5. That's comfortably above the replacement level.
  - satronaut 5y ago
    no, they're not productive because they live off of goverment handouts. ANYBODY who takes more than they give is unproductive. Middleschoolers are unproductive, incarcerated felons are unproductive, people living off government grants are unproductive
    - 5y ago
stu2010 5y ago
Israel has a large and growing ultra-Orthodox population, with an average of 7.1 children per woman among the ultra-Orthodox Jews: https://en.idi.org.il/articles/25385 https://en.idi.org.il/articles/25385 The US has a similar fertility-focused religious movement, but it's much more fringe and relatively smaller. Religious beliefs can drive super-high birth rates in pretty much any society, but aside from Israel, higher education has been associated with lower rates of religious belief. Declining religious participation and intensity of belief may well be contributing to the fall in global birth-rates.
juskrey 5y ago
People are quick suggesting it is Orthodox, but in reality non-religious women in Israel have a fertility rate of 2.5, and overall contribution mounts over time as generations pass.
baybal2 5y ago
FerociousTimes 5y ago
At the expense of growing and ultimately suffocating population density. Eventually, they will have to make adjustments to offset this problem.
- morganslaw 5y ago
  Couldn't they just expand into neighboring countries and push the others out? Israel has a super well equipped military.
  - FerociousTimes 5y ago
    Oh man, don't lure me into this political flamewars, esp. the most vicious of all the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

throwaway6734 5y ago

Iirc Israel's large Orthodox community is responsible for most of the growth https://www.timesofisrael.com/haredi-population-growing-twice-as-fast-as-total-israeli-population-report/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/haredi-population-growing-twic...

refurb 5y ago

Combination of religious groups that favor big families plus immigration from low income countries where large families are still commmon?

hunglee2 5y ago

two factors in Israel might explain 1) immigration - of course Israel grants the right of every Jewish person to live in Israel, in fact paid an incentive to relocate. Presumably there a constant inflow from the Jewish diaspora and their descendants which might supplement the population 2) orthodox families, I'm guessing, have outsized families. Where women do not participate in the market economy, they end up having lots of kids instead Again, no idea on the percentage contributions of either of these cases, but it might go some way toward explaining Israel's countervailing trend!

unmole 5y ago
> Where women do not participate in the market economy It's not just women. Somewhere around half of Haredi men do not work.
- User23 5y ago
  > Somewhere around half of Haredi men do not work. Or, stated less pejoratively, somewhere around half of Haredi men devote their lives to scholarship.
  - Siira 5y ago
    Scholarship which has produced what findings?
  - unmole 5y ago
    Or stated more practically, somewhere around half of Haredi men are given handouts by the state to do no productive work.
    - scsilver 5y ago
      Israel is a lifeboat not an office.
      - unmole 5y ago
        Well the boat won't be able to go anywhere if an increasing number of the occupants refuse paddle. Also, gentle reminder that more Jews live in the US than in Israel.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    - tsol 5y ago
      I mean I'm not a huge fan of Israel due to their history, but to say that the religious scholar class in Israel does no productive work is strange. Just because they don't make anything you can sell for a profit, doesn't mean they don't add very real value to people's lives
liveoneggs 5y ago
I encountered (but did not shake hands with! ;) a lot of conservative women with 5+ kids in the workforce while in Israel. Much more than men, where I encountered less strict observance. It was a pretty interesting culture difference.

satronaut 5y ago

jtbayly 5y ago
What in the world? They were in education jobs until Covid, and now they’re in commerce jobs, but they’re obviously not productive members of society because of their religion?!?
- unmole 5y ago
  > they’re obviously not productive members of society because of their religion? As shocking as it might sound, yes.
  - jtbayly 5y ago
    Well when there are still workers in Israel because of them you can come back and apologize for claiming they weren’t being productive. It’s laughable to claim that people producing literal other people aren’t being productive.
    - unmole 5y ago
      Again over half of Haredi men choose to live off state handouts. Their women are anyways treated as second class citizens. If this remains the case, with their increasing numbers they will need more handouts which paid for by the rest of the population. It's not hard to see why this isn't sustainable. TFR amongst secular Jewish women in Israel is 2.5. That's comfortably above the replacement level.
- satronaut 5y ago
  no, they're not productive because they live off of goverment handouts. ANYBODY who takes more than they give is unproductive. Middleschoolers are unproductive, incarcerated felons are unproductive, people living off government grants are unproductive
  - 5y ago

stu2010 5y ago

Israel has a large and growing ultra-Orthodox population, with an average of 7.1 children per woman among the ultra-Orthodox Jews: https://en.idi.org.il/articles/25385 https://en.idi.org.il/articles/25385 The US has a similar fertility-focused religious movement, but it's much more fringe and relatively smaller. Religious beliefs can drive super-high birth rates in pretty much any society, but aside from Israel, higher education has been associated with lower rates of religious belief. Declining religious participation and intensity of belief may well be contributing to the fall in global birth-rates.

juskrey 5y ago

People are quick suggesting it is Orthodox, but in reality non-religious women in Israel have a fertility rate of 2.5, and overall contribution mounts over time as generations pass.

baybal2 5y ago

FerociousTimes 5y ago

At the expense of growing and ultimately suffocating population density. Eventually, they will have to make adjustments to offset this problem.

morganslaw 5y ago
Couldn't they just expand into neighboring countries and push the others out? Israel has a super well equipped military.
- FerociousTimes 5y ago
  Oh man, don't lure me into this political flamewars, esp. the most vicious of all the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.