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"If you want kids, just have the kids" sounds very irresponsible - a good way to create a lot of suffering. It is not a decision you can reverse. You should giv

"If you want kids, just have the kids" sounds very irresponsible - a good way to create a lot of suffering. It is not a decision you can reverse. You should give it a lot more thought than to choosing your career, where/how you live, or to getting a pet. It is shocking that so often it is the opposite, and people 'yolo' into this decision. If anything, you should err on the side of not having children, unless you are very, very sure: 1. You will still want to be spending overwhelming majority of your time on children in 1, 2, 5, 10 years at least and will be enjoying it. 2. You are in a position to be consistently spending enough time and effort and other resources on them. 3. You are very confident you will be able to be a good parent, and that you are bringing new life into a good environment that both you and them will enjoy. You need to be in a very good, stable place both physically and mentally for sure before you even consider it.

drnonsense42 5y ago
This is the type of modern wisdom that the person you’re responding to is deliberately contradicting. This modern wisdom is why our birth rate (at least for citizens) is so catastrophically low. Sure, you can’t be a 20yo janitor with a housewife, 3 kids, a home, and new iPhones every 2 years, but plenty of people go for kids before they’re “ready” and make it just fine.
- agent008t 5y ago
  Why is it 'catastrophically' low? It is not obvious to me that the UK, for example, would not enjoy much higher standards of living if it had half the population. Technology and innovation does not increase the availability of good land and nice housing, but it does massively increase productivity in other areas. I would also argue that plenty of people that go for children who are not ready for it don't make it just fine. More importantly, their children, that didn't ask for any of it, end up suffering because of their mistakes. Plenty of people have psychological issues of various degrees because of poor parenting. 15% of families in the UK are lone parent families! By age 12 a staggering 40% (!) of children are not living with both birth parents! [1] And these figures are almost twice as bad for low-income families. And out of the children that do live with both birth parents, 11-28% of the parents report an unhappy relationship. That is the catastrophe. Humans have this strange blindspot where they tend to be irrational and irresponsible about the decision to procreate. Previous generations did not have much of a choice because of lack of available contraception, lack of knowledge. Our generation has no excuse. [1] https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/223251/Children_both_parents_income_FINAL.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...
  - drnonsense42 5y ago
    Honestly, I find certain topics, like the need to procreate, are impossible to reason for or against; I might as well be handing out Bible copies. But, an obvious argument for procreation is an aging population, coupled with swelling national debt largely affected by the need to take care of them and a decrease in youth which can produce products to reduce this debt. I have not seen any intellectually honest way of dealing with this beyond “automation will solve everything”. That’s just one example, anyway. Secondly, I don’t think your data on single parent families really disproves anything, specifically because that data is highly confounded by drug addicts, high school dropouts, unwed couples, accidental pregnancies, and dozens of other factors. If we’re to reason in good faith, the advice I and others are advocating for is that you don’t need to be a homeowner with a 200k+ salary, although of course you should be a reasonably mature, employed adult with a mature partner. I think it’s in poor faith as well to reduce this to “if you feel a need to have children, you’re irrational and still stuck in go-forth-and-multiply mode”. But, again, this is not an issue anyone can find common ground over with reason or data (which you can find to support any conclusion), and I expect the HN crowd falls on a particular side of this on average, so I won’t argue further.
  - yywwbbn 5y ago
    > It is not obvious to me that the UK, for example, would not enjoy much higher standards of living if it had half the population. The problem is the transition to this lower population. You’d have a period of 40/50 years where older people severely outnumber those who are relatively young, leading to massive increase in per capita healthcare expenditures coupled with a decrease in productivity. So no, at least bot in our lifetimes.
- crate_barre 5y ago
  I think your advice is correct for those that want kids. The issue becomes contentious when this is advocated to people who mostly are on the other side of that decision. Going for kids before you are ready is still aligned with ‘wanting kids’.
  - agent008t 5y ago
    Wanting is only a part of the equation. You need to both be willing and able to be a competent parent. Some people lack the emotional stability required, for example. Others don't tend to see such long-term projects to completion, abandoning their hobbies even a few years in. Yet others just don't have the resources, unfortunately as it is, or have other factors significantly limiting their ability to be good parents.
pyuser583 5y ago
If you wait until you’re “ready” it will never happen. There are definitely bad times. But many of the things you mention contradict each other? Can I afford children? Get a well paying job. Well paying jobs require more hours. That means you have less time to dedicate to your kids. Realistically, unless you have at least $500,000 saved up, you’re taking a financial gamble having kids. If they have serious medical issues, any amount of money could be wiped out. I’d argue there are probably too many people who should be having kids not having kids, than people who shouldn’t be having kids having kids. Both are obviously happening. And in probably biased because I know so many childless software engineers who make six figures. But there really, really never is a good time.
- agent008t 5y ago
  Usually, when there is really, really never a good time for something, the answer is "don't do it", not "go for it ignoring all logic and reason". Now, there is a difference between just getting cold feet and it actually never being a good time. For example, if you had a choice to sit an exam when ready, you could be tempted to always postpone it another week, because there is always more studying you could do. But realistically, at some point you are actually, objectively ready and should go for it. So of course you need to consider that one of you will have to become a stay at home parent, or you will need to hire someone to do so instead. That may mean you would need to significantly cut your other expenses, have a much longer commute, live in much worse/smaller accommodation etc. Of course you need to consider if your neighborhood is child-friendly, so that your child can play outside and socialize with other children. If you are planning to involve your relatives, of course you need to first get their informed consent. Having children is a decision and a choice. You are not forced into it. And it is a choice that must be made responsibly.
jbjbjbjb 5y ago
You’re over complicating it. If you *want* kids then have them. That’s perfectly reasonable. If you’re in you thirties and have the adult basics down you’re ready for kids. Kids are hard work but also they’re cute and add a lot of joy to life. They also put your own personal goals and other peoples goals in perspective. The other day in a meeting with my child’s teacher I was so proud that had to wipe away the tears. I don’t get that feeling from my personal achievements.

drnonsense42 5y ago

This is the type of modern wisdom that the person you’re responding to is deliberately contradicting. This modern wisdom is why our birth rate (at least for citizens) is so catastrophically low. Sure, you can’t be a 20yo janitor with a housewife, 3 kids, a home, and new iPhones every 2 years, but plenty of people go for kids before they’re “ready” and make it just fine.

agent008t 5y ago
Why is it 'catastrophically' low? It is not obvious to me that the UK, for example, would not enjoy much higher standards of living if it had half the population. Technology and innovation does not increase the availability of good land and nice housing, but it does massively increase productivity in other areas. I would also argue that plenty of people that go for children who are not ready for it don't make it just fine. More importantly, their children, that didn't ask for any of it, end up suffering because of their mistakes. Plenty of people have psychological issues of various degrees because of poor parenting. 15% of families in the UK are lone parent families! By age 12 a staggering 40% (!) of children are not living with both birth parents! [1] And these figures are almost twice as bad for low-income families. And out of the children that do live with both birth parents, 11-28% of the parents report an unhappy relationship. That is the catastrophe. Humans have this strange blindspot where they tend to be irrational and irresponsible about the decision to procreate. Previous generations did not have much of a choice because of lack of available contraception, lack of knowledge. Our generation has no excuse. [1] https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/223251/Children_both_parents_income_FINAL.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...
- drnonsense42 5y ago
  Honestly, I find certain topics, like the need to procreate, are impossible to reason for or against; I might as well be handing out Bible copies. But, an obvious argument for procreation is an aging population, coupled with swelling national debt largely affected by the need to take care of them and a decrease in youth which can produce products to reduce this debt. I have not seen any intellectually honest way of dealing with this beyond “automation will solve everything”. That’s just one example, anyway. Secondly, I don’t think your data on single parent families really disproves anything, specifically because that data is highly confounded by drug addicts, high school dropouts, unwed couples, accidental pregnancies, and dozens of other factors. If we’re to reason in good faith, the advice I and others are advocating for is that you don’t need to be a homeowner with a 200k+ salary, although of course you should be a reasonably mature, employed adult with a mature partner. I think it’s in poor faith as well to reduce this to “if you feel a need to have children, you’re irrational and still stuck in go-forth-and-multiply mode”. But, again, this is not an issue anyone can find common ground over with reason or data (which you can find to support any conclusion), and I expect the HN crowd falls on a particular side of this on average, so I won’t argue further.
- yywwbbn 5y ago
  > It is not obvious to me that the UK, for example, would not enjoy much higher standards of living if it had half the population. The problem is the transition to this lower population. You’d have a period of 40/50 years where older people severely outnumber those who are relatively young, leading to massive increase in per capita healthcare expenditures coupled with a decrease in productivity. So no, at least bot in our lifetimes.
crate_barre 5y ago
I think your advice is correct for those that want kids. The issue becomes contentious when this is advocated to people who mostly are on the other side of that decision. Going for kids before you are ready is still aligned with ‘wanting kids’.
- agent008t 5y ago
  Wanting is only a part of the equation. You need to both be willing and able to be a competent parent. Some people lack the emotional stability required, for example. Others don't tend to see such long-term projects to completion, abandoning their hobbies even a few years in. Yet others just don't have the resources, unfortunately as it is, or have other factors significantly limiting their ability to be good parents.

pyuser583 5y ago

If you wait until you’re “ready” it will never happen. There are definitely bad times. But many of the things you mention contradict each other? Can I afford children? Get a well paying job. Well paying jobs require more hours. That means you have less time to dedicate to your kids. Realistically, unless you have at least $500,000 saved up, you’re taking a financial gamble having kids. If they have serious medical issues, any amount of money could be wiped out. I’d argue there are probably too many people who should be having kids not having kids, than people who shouldn’t be having kids having kids. Both are obviously happening. And in probably biased because I know so many childless software engineers who make six figures. But there really, really never is a good time.

agent008t 5y ago
Usually, when there is really, really never a good time for something, the answer is "don't do it", not "go for it ignoring all logic and reason". Now, there is a difference between just getting cold feet and it actually never being a good time. For example, if you had a choice to sit an exam when ready, you could be tempted to always postpone it another week, because there is always more studying you could do. But realistically, at some point you are actually, objectively ready and should go for it. So of course you need to consider that one of you will have to become a stay at home parent, or you will need to hire someone to do so instead. That may mean you would need to significantly cut your other expenses, have a much longer commute, live in much worse/smaller accommodation etc. Of course you need to consider if your neighborhood is child-friendly, so that your child can play outside and socialize with other children. If you are planning to involve your relatives, of course you need to first get their informed consent. Having children is a decision and a choice. You are not forced into it. And it is a choice that must be made responsibly.

jbjbjbjb 5y ago

You’re over complicating it. If you *want* kids then have them. That’s perfectly reasonable. If you’re in you thirties and have the adult basics down you’re ready for kids. Kids are hard work but also they’re cute and add a lot of joy to life. They also put your own personal goals and other peoples goals in perspective. The other day in a meeting with my child’s teacher I was so proud that had to wipe away the tears. I don’t get that feeling from my personal achievements.