5 ms·

Your comment illustrates a large part of the problem. If society believes addiction is mostly a willpower problem, then effective services to help address it w

by tyingq 5y ago

Your comment illustrates a large part of the problem. If society believes addiction is mostly a willpower problem, then effective services to help address it won't exist.

dotancohen 5y ago
That service exists, though. The hospital specifically referred them to AA.
- elliekelly 5y ago
  AA is a religious organization. Not everyone wants to be “saved”. Nor should they have to be in order to get treatment for alcoholism.
  - clsec 5y ago
    IMO it's a cult. I spent a lot of my childhood at AA meetings with my alcoholic mother. I am also an alcoholic and struggled for years because the only answer I was ever offered was AA/NA. I tried it for myself a few times (usually to please others) but was always instantly turned off by it's cult like attributes. I eventually found help through a few different paths. disclaimer: my half-sister's mother was in a cult (Alive Polarity Fellowship) for 20 years.
    - franknstein 5y ago
      This might sound rough, but don't you think some brainwashing could help your situation?
      - clsec 5y ago
        Well, there was this in my post > "I eventually found help through a few different paths." So thanks anyway but I don't need any help, especially brainwashing. My mind is too analytical to respond to it anyway ;)
    - dotancohen 5y ago
      Share what helped, please.
  - duped 5y ago
    Not only is it religious, its not founded in any empiricism or medical study. Here's a decent article laying out the critiques, the opening paragraph is what everyone should keep in mind: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/03/the-surprising-failures-of-12-steps/284616/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/03/the-surpr... > Say you’ve been diagnosed with a serious, life-altering illness or psychological condition. In lieu of medication, psychotherapy, or a combination thereof, your doctor prescribes nightly meetings with a group of similarly afflicted individuals, and a set of 12 non-medical guidelines for recovery, half of which require direct appeals to God. What would you do?
    - rchaud 5y ago
      AFAIK, AA doesn't make you swear on the Bible or profess one's faith in Christ before you're allowed to join a meeting. You can ignore the religious stuff and still make use of AA's highest-impact features: - regular meetings, no appointment required - being open and vulnerable in front of other people who understand the hell of addiction in ways your partner or family won't. - having an accountability partners to call during moments of temptation, and having that reciprocal commitment is a far stronger deterrent to relapse than calling a crisis hotline offering scripted responses.
      - duped 5y ago
        The alternative to AA isn't a crisis hotline, but medical treatment with empirical support for its effectiveness
        holler 5y ago
        What medical treatment? 12 step is fundamentally about community and connection (opposite of addiction), there is no pill that can give one that.
      - kar5pt 5y ago
        You can't ignore the religious stuff. It's baked into the program. Daily prayer is considered a non-optional part of the 12 steps and atheists and constantly derided as being arrogant and unlikely to stay sober. They're a reason why atheists have found it necessary to create separate meetings and why regional intergroups often exclude those meetings from public meeting lists since they consider it to not be "real" AA.
  - SkittyDog 5y ago
    With respect, I believe you have a common misunderstanding of 12-step programs... AA is not an inherently religious organization, nor does it require any religious/supernatural beliefs. I'm an atheist, and I've been to years of AA meetings. There is no requirement of religious belief for participating. The concept of a "higher power" is an important part of dealing with our narcissistic ego defenses, but it's not necessarily a religious concept. God just happens to be a convenient implementation of a "higher power" that works for a lot of folks. Now, there are plenty of people in AA, attending and running meetings, who DO have religious beliefs. A lot of AA literature is written by people who have religious beliefs... The people who founded AA had religious beliefs. So I think it's understandable that religion appears a lot in the mix. Plenty of modern AA groups explicitly address the "God not required" issue... Maybe it helps that I live in a big city, but I've never had a problem with being an atheist and participating in AA.
  - genzoman 5y ago
    https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/03/alcoholics-anonymous-most-effective-path-to-alcohol-abstinence.html https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/03/alcoholics-an...
- vkou 5y ago
  AA barely works, though.
  - holler 5y ago
    I know lots of ppl with years of sobriety through AA so I would say it does work for some. It existing as a choice free of charge around the world for ppl suffering is a good thing.
    - ahahahahah 5y ago
      I know lots of people who haven't been attacked by bears since they bought a bear protection talisman so I would say that they work for some.
      - holler 5y ago
        Yeah except those people don't intrinsically enjoy being attacked by bears despite that it will kill them, and the attacking bears aren't featured as a prominent aspect of the social fabric visible in everyday life, on nearly every corner, tv ad, social event, and otherwise.
giantg2 5y ago
Isn't the first step admitting you have a problem and wanting to fix it? There's not much one can do without patient consent (which I don't think is mentioned here). Even then, the most the hospital can really do is counsel and recommend inpatient treatment at a specialized facility. I really hope the 'pushed out the doors comment was a slight exaggeration. They should have at least talked about the treatment options, given them a brochure/info for a treatment center. It's not much, but that's basically all they can do.
- tyingq 5y ago
  It is. But that's making the assumption that step 1 is where most people fail. I suspect that's not the case.
  - giantg2 5y ago
    Well, anyone with a problem fails that step for some period of time until they realize it. But sure, once in or trying to be in recovery, that occupies the rest of their life. This whole thread is making assumptions as it wasn't mentioned if the person would consent to treatment.
- steve_adams_86 5y ago
  I do wonder if people would be more inclined to address and solve their problem if they felt people around them and society at large cared for them. Most alcoholics I’ve known have struggled with a sense of not mattering, not being cared for, of their problem being inconsequential because they don’t matter, etc. Telling people like that to recognize their problem and want to get better is almost pointless.
opportune 5y ago
I am an alcoholic sober for several years. It is fundamentally a willpower problem. Even if insurance or the government paid for inpatient rehab, as soon as you walk out the door it’s only willpower that stops you from continuing to drink. The same goes for being given medication that reduces cravings for alcohol or makes you sick if you drink. You can always just not take it. That said, most people don’t become addicts in a vacuum. Many people become addicts only because a life under the influence beats their life otherwise. Unfortunately it’s a lot harder to fix someone’s life than it is to get them sober. But the poor sober life is, in my opinion, the actual underlying condition which leads to addiction. We don’t really have a framework for treating that as a society nor through the medical system.

by tyingq 5y ago

Your comment illustrates a large part of the problem. If society believes addiction is mostly a willpower problem, then effective services to help address it won't exist.

dotancohen 5y ago

That service exists, though. The hospital specifically referred them to AA.

elliekelly 5y ago
AA is a religious organization. Not everyone wants to be “saved”. Nor should they have to be in order to get treatment for alcoholism.
- clsec 5y ago
  IMO it's a cult. I spent a lot of my childhood at AA meetings with my alcoholic mother. I am also an alcoholic and struggled for years because the only answer I was ever offered was AA/NA. I tried it for myself a few times (usually to please others) but was always instantly turned off by it's cult like attributes. I eventually found help through a few different paths. disclaimer: my half-sister's mother was in a cult (Alive Polarity Fellowship) for 20 years.
  - franknstein 5y ago
    This might sound rough, but don't you think some brainwashing could help your situation?
    - clsec 5y ago
      Well, there was this in my post > "I eventually found help through a few different paths." So thanks anyway but I don't need any help, especially brainwashing. My mind is too analytical to respond to it anyway ;)
  - dotancohen 5y ago
    Share what helped, please.
- duped 5y ago
  Not only is it religious, its not founded in any empiricism or medical study. Here's a decent article laying out the critiques, the opening paragraph is what everyone should keep in mind: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/03/the-surprising-failures-of-12-steps/284616/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/03/the-surpr... > Say you’ve been diagnosed with a serious, life-altering illness or psychological condition. In lieu of medication, psychotherapy, or a combination thereof, your doctor prescribes nightly meetings with a group of similarly afflicted individuals, and a set of 12 non-medical guidelines for recovery, half of which require direct appeals to God. What would you do?
  - rchaud 5y ago
    AFAIK, AA doesn't make you swear on the Bible or profess one's faith in Christ before you're allowed to join a meeting. You can ignore the religious stuff and still make use of AA's highest-impact features: - regular meetings, no appointment required - being open and vulnerable in front of other people who understand the hell of addiction in ways your partner or family won't. - having an accountability partners to call during moments of temptation, and having that reciprocal commitment is a far stronger deterrent to relapse than calling a crisis hotline offering scripted responses.
    - duped 5y ago
      The alternative to AA isn't a crisis hotline, but medical treatment with empirical support for its effectiveness
      - holler 5y ago
        What medical treatment? 12 step is fundamentally about community and connection (opposite of addiction), there is no pill that can give one that.
    - kar5pt 5y ago
      You can't ignore the religious stuff. It's baked into the program. Daily prayer is considered a non-optional part of the 12 steps and atheists and constantly derided as being arrogant and unlikely to stay sober. They're a reason why atheists have found it necessary to create separate meetings and why regional intergroups often exclude those meetings from public meeting lists since they consider it to not be "real" AA.
- SkittyDog 5y ago
  With respect, I believe you have a common misunderstanding of 12-step programs... AA is not an inherently religious organization, nor does it require any religious/supernatural beliefs. I'm an atheist, and I've been to years of AA meetings. There is no requirement of religious belief for participating. The concept of a "higher power" is an important part of dealing with our narcissistic ego defenses, but it's not necessarily a religious concept. God just happens to be a convenient implementation of a "higher power" that works for a lot of folks. Now, there are plenty of people in AA, attending and running meetings, who DO have religious beliefs. A lot of AA literature is written by people who have religious beliefs... The people who founded AA had religious beliefs. So I think it's understandable that religion appears a lot in the mix. Plenty of modern AA groups explicitly address the "God not required" issue... Maybe it helps that I live in a big city, but I've never had a problem with being an atheist and participating in AA.
- genzoman 5y ago
  https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/03/alcoholics-anonymous-most-effective-path-to-alcohol-abstinence.html https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/03/alcoholics-an...
vkou 5y ago
AA barely works, though.
- holler 5y ago
  I know lots of ppl with years of sobriety through AA so I would say it does work for some. It existing as a choice free of charge around the world for ppl suffering is a good thing.
  - ahahahahah 5y ago
    I know lots of people who haven't been attacked by bears since they bought a bear protection talisman so I would say that they work for some.
    - holler 5y ago
      Yeah except those people don't intrinsically enjoy being attacked by bears despite that it will kill them, and the attacking bears aren't featured as a prominent aspect of the social fabric visible in everyday life, on nearly every corner, tv ad, social event, and otherwise.

giantg2 5y ago

Isn't the first step admitting you have a problem and wanting to fix it? There's not much one can do without patient consent (which I don't think is mentioned here). Even then, the most the hospital can really do is counsel and recommend inpatient treatment at a specialized facility. I really hope the 'pushed out the doors comment was a slight exaggeration. They should have at least talked about the treatment options, given them a brochure/info for a treatment center. It's not much, but that's basically all they can do.

tyingq 5y ago
It is. But that's making the assumption that step 1 is where most people fail. I suspect that's not the case.
- giantg2 5y ago
  Well, anyone with a problem fails that step for some period of time until they realize it. But sure, once in or trying to be in recovery, that occupies the rest of their life. This whole thread is making assumptions as it wasn't mentioned if the person would consent to treatment.
steve_adams_86 5y ago
I do wonder if people would be more inclined to address and solve their problem if they felt people around them and society at large cared for them. Most alcoholics I’ve known have struggled with a sense of not mattering, not being cared for, of their problem being inconsequential because they don’t matter, etc. Telling people like that to recognize their problem and want to get better is almost pointless.

opportune 5y ago

I am an alcoholic sober for several years. It is fundamentally a willpower problem. Even if insurance or the government paid for inpatient rehab, as soon as you walk out the door it’s only willpower that stops you from continuing to drink. The same goes for being given medication that reduces cravings for alcohol or makes you sick if you drink. You can always just not take it. That said, most people don’t become addicts in a vacuum. Many people become addicts only because a life under the influence beats their life otherwise. Unfortunately it’s a lot harder to fix someone’s life than it is to get them sober. But the poor sober life is, in my opinion, the actual underlying condition which leads to addiction. We don’t really have a framework for treating that as a society nor through the medical system.