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Interesting. So I both drink and smoke because I enjoy it and life is too short to not do things you enjoy (applicable to all things in life), even if it shorte

Interesting. So I both drink and smoke because I enjoy it and life is too short to not do things you enjoy (applicable to all things in life), even if it shortens my life-span by some years give or take. What is the logical evidence proving that I actually don't enjoy it?

dataengineer56 5y ago
I would recommend you read the book, but why do you think you enjoy it? Do you enjoy the taste, do you think it helps you relax, do you think it's necessary to enjoy social situations?
- chockchocschoir 5y ago
  It's hard to justify reading the book if I don't think I do want to stop smoking or drinking. It's enjoyable on multiple levels, just like gaming, commenting on HN, reading interesting articles, going for bike rides, eating good food and many other things. I understand for people who have negative consequences for something would like to stop (when they're addicted), but if the negative consequences are small compared to the enjoyability, what's the point of stopping something?
  - dataengineer56 5y ago
    I'm not going to try to persuade you (or anyone) from stopping drinking, I'm just saying that for most people it seems a bizarre oversight to not even consider it. You don't need to be so defensive.
    - chockchocschoir 5y ago
      I'm not defensive, I'm trying to explain my position (as a self-proclaimed "smart and rational" person) since you claimed there was no (logical) reason to have those vices. You're making strong claims, and I'm just asking you to back those up without forcing people to buy a book that you say supports those claims. Otherwise there isn't much value in you making your claims here. I'm sure (or rather, I hope) the book helps many who face addiction with those things and there isn't much to lose by helping more people finding the book if they are looking for help, so thanks for sharing it anyway.
      - dataengineer56 5y ago
        I asked why you found it enjoyable and you didn't respond, so it's hard to explain the author's viewpoint when you haven't explained why you drink. To give generalised responses to the three main reasons that people give: - Do you enjoy the taste? - Alcohol is ultimately a foul-tasting poison. No one ever liked their first taste of beer. We start with highly-flavoured drinks like alcopops and after a while our body says "well you must have a damn good reason for imbibing this poison, so I'll stop warning you as much". - Do you think it helps you relax? - Alcohol dulls your senses. I'd consider relaxing to be a sensation, and so in this respect it can't help you relax. On a deeper level, generally to relax you need to fix the thing that would stop you from relaxing - you have a headache and you take aspirin. Alcohol is not the solution to any stressor. - Do you think it's necessary to enjoy social situations? - Think about children at a party. They turn up very shy and within 30 mins are bouncing off the walls. No alcohol needed. Adults are the same. And we all have multiple memories of social events that have been ruined by alcohol.
        Tenoke 5y ago
        >- Do you think it's necessary to enjoy social situations? I don't think it's necessary (for me). I am in social situations with and without alcohol often enough and it's easy to see I on average enjoy myself more when drinking in those.
        briHass 5y ago
        Nobody likes their first taste of black coffee or unsweetened grapefruit, either. The bitter tastes are definitely acquired, and tend to be liked by men more than women.
        dataengineer56 5y ago
        Chili peppers too. All of these initially-offputting tastes are strategies by the plant to make animals not want to eat them. However as humans we've decided they're tasty and that it's worth learning to like them. The key difference between these and alcohol is that we know none of them are actually harmful (yes I know that coffee is harmful in large quantities). This is quite different to drinking ethanol, a literal poison that sends the liver into panic stations the instant it detects it.
    - Sosh101 5y ago
      You're coming across pretty pushy.
  - yosito 5y ago
    > It's hard to justify reading the book if I don't think I do want to stop smoking or drinking. I agree with you that the book might not be right for you if you don't want to stop. On the other hand, I didn't think I wanted to stop drinking, until I did want to stop, and then suddenly I wished I hadn't spent the last 10 years drinking. It ultimately didn't enhance my life at all. But I wouldn't have heard that message until I was ready.
    - dataengineer56 5y ago
      That was my situation too - I wasn't drinking much and decided I'd do some reading to decide whether I should keep drinking intermittently or just ditch it entirely. Once I started reading then I couldn't believe I'd ever drank in the first place.
      - cutthegrass2 5y ago
        are you able to share any links to the info you read?
        yosito 5y ago
        Not the commenter you were replying to, but Biology of Desire by Marc Lewis was a good one. There was also a lot of good info in The Sober Truth by Lance Dodes, but it's more of a rebuttal against 12 step programs.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
Cloudef 5y ago
Sadly life isnt logical. Some people cant open up at all without alcohol. Alcohol may be their only way to connect with people. It can help them relax as it relives stress, some enjoy that it breaks the ice on social situations etc.. Human isnt logical being.
- dataengineer56 5y ago
  These are all misconceptions that the book addresses. Alcohol does not relieve stress, it deadens senses. To combat stress you need to solve the problem that is causing your stress. Alcohol does not improve confidence, it reduces inhibitions. Inhibitions are essential for being rational and making good decisions. See: people who have a drink and then injure themselves or get into fights.
  - giantg2 5y ago
    "Inhibitions are essential for being rational and making good decisions." I wonder if this is part of the reason high IQ individuals are more likely to binge drink and get drunk - to be less rational.
  - standardUser 5y ago
    I've read the book (and quit smoking with his other book) but I think he fails to account for the diversity of individual reactions to alcohol as a drug. Some people have an easier time drinking (few problems with addiction, no negative changes to behavior, minimal hangovers) than other people (easily addicted, bad moods/behaviors, disruptive hangovers). It's pretty easy to craft a compelling negative narrative if you're the latter type of drinker. Not so much if you're the former. The same with smoking. I was viscously addicted to smoking and quitting was a living hell. But I've know people who were occasional smokers who decided to stop one day and had no problem doing so.
subungual 5y ago
Not here to proselytize about your lifestyle choices, and I've certainly enjoyed my fair share of smoking and drinking myself over the years. That said, as someone who works daily with patients whose health has been destroyed by excessive drinking or pretty much any level of smoking, it's always been striking to me how surprised people tend to be by the results. A lot of people performing the calculus of "eh, what's five to ten years off the end of my life as long as I'm enjoying it now" seem to think it works neatly like that-- they'll die earlier from cancer or a heart attack, and that's it. I'm struck by how often they are surprised and upset by the fact that instead of that, they're living the last 30 years of their lives with irreversible heart, lung, liver, and vascular issues that leave them unable to do the things they've enjoyed outside of smoking and drinking. Just a thought.
- gitfan86 5y ago
  The problem with the people you are talking about is that they didn't cut back as soon as they started to have minor medical problems. Having 4 drinks a day for a couple years in your 30s doesn't cause permanent liver damage that will kill you. But continuing to have 4 drinks a day AFTER being told that you are overweight and have elevated blood test results due to drinking can kill you. This becomes even more important as you age. Someone who starts smoking heavily in their 60s is far more likely to get a blood clot than someone in their 20s
  - subungual 5y ago
    I fully understand what you're saying, but it's somewhat skew to the point I'm trying to make. The people I'm talking about are the ones who have already baked health effects of their habits into their calculus and claim to acknowledge them. For someone who has already bought into the idea that their smoking or drinking will shorten their lives, an elevated BP reading, finding themselves having trouble taking more than one flight of stairs, or even having some chest or leg pain when they're walking around are unlikely to be major wake-up calls. My point is that people may know the end result, but they generally don't have a sense of what the path to that result looks like and underestimate its effects.
  - 5y ago
willcipriano 5y ago
Addiction is defined as encountering substantial consequences for substance use and continuing to use them. Someone who drinks or smokes a few times a year isn't the audience for this sort of thing. If you do it on a regular basis you may want to look closer for consequences, and spend some time away from the drug to see what life is like without it. After doing so if you find the drug makes your life better, or at least causes you no harm, go for it.

dataengineer56 5y ago

I would recommend you read the book, but why do you think you enjoy it? Do you enjoy the taste, do you think it helps you relax, do you think it's necessary to enjoy social situations?

chockchocschoir 5y ago
It's hard to justify reading the book if I don't think I do want to stop smoking or drinking. It's enjoyable on multiple levels, just like gaming, commenting on HN, reading interesting articles, going for bike rides, eating good food and many other things. I understand for people who have negative consequences for something would like to stop (when they're addicted), but if the negative consequences are small compared to the enjoyability, what's the point of stopping something?
- dataengineer56 5y ago
  I'm not going to try to persuade you (or anyone) from stopping drinking, I'm just saying that for most people it seems a bizarre oversight to not even consider it. You don't need to be so defensive.
  - chockchocschoir 5y ago
    I'm not defensive, I'm trying to explain my position (as a self-proclaimed "smart and rational" person) since you claimed there was no (logical) reason to have those vices. You're making strong claims, and I'm just asking you to back those up without forcing people to buy a book that you say supports those claims. Otherwise there isn't much value in you making your claims here. I'm sure (or rather, I hope) the book helps many who face addiction with those things and there isn't much to lose by helping more people finding the book if they are looking for help, so thanks for sharing it anyway.
    - dataengineer56 5y ago
      I asked why you found it enjoyable and you didn't respond, so it's hard to explain the author's viewpoint when you haven't explained why you drink. To give generalised responses to the three main reasons that people give: - Do you enjoy the taste? - Alcohol is ultimately a foul-tasting poison. No one ever liked their first taste of beer. We start with highly-flavoured drinks like alcopops and after a while our body says "well you must have a damn good reason for imbibing this poison, so I'll stop warning you as much". - Do you think it helps you relax? - Alcohol dulls your senses. I'd consider relaxing to be a sensation, and so in this respect it can't help you relax. On a deeper level, generally to relax you need to fix the thing that would stop you from relaxing - you have a headache and you take aspirin. Alcohol is not the solution to any stressor. - Do you think it's necessary to enjoy social situations? - Think about children at a party. They turn up very shy and within 30 mins are bouncing off the walls. No alcohol needed. Adults are the same. And we all have multiple memories of social events that have been ruined by alcohol.
      - Tenoke 5y ago
        >- Do you think it's necessary to enjoy social situations? I don't think it's necessary (for me). I am in social situations with and without alcohol often enough and it's easy to see I on average enjoy myself more when drinking in those.
      - briHass 5y ago
        Nobody likes their first taste of black coffee or unsweetened grapefruit, either. The bitter tastes are definitely acquired, and tend to be liked by men more than women.
        dataengineer56 5y ago
        Chili peppers too. All of these initially-offputting tastes are strategies by the plant to make animals not want to eat them. However as humans we've decided they're tasty and that it's worth learning to like them. The key difference between these and alcohol is that we know none of them are actually harmful (yes I know that coffee is harmful in large quantities). This is quite different to drinking ethanol, a literal poison that sends the liver into panic stations the instant it detects it.
  - Sosh101 5y ago
    You're coming across pretty pushy.
- yosito 5y ago
  > It's hard to justify reading the book if I don't think I do want to stop smoking or drinking. I agree with you that the book might not be right for you if you don't want to stop. On the other hand, I didn't think I wanted to stop drinking, until I did want to stop, and then suddenly I wished I hadn't spent the last 10 years drinking. It ultimately didn't enhance my life at all. But I wouldn't have heard that message until I was ready.
  - dataengineer56 5y ago
    That was my situation too - I wasn't drinking much and decided I'd do some reading to decide whether I should keep drinking intermittently or just ditch it entirely. Once I started reading then I couldn't believe I'd ever drank in the first place.
    - cutthegrass2 5y ago
      are you able to share any links to the info you read?
      - yosito 5y ago
        Not the commenter you were replying to, but Biology of Desire by Marc Lewis was a good one. There was also a lot of good info in The Sober Truth by Lance Dodes, but it's more of a rebuttal against 12 step programs.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

Cloudef 5y ago

Sadly life isnt logical. Some people cant open up at all without alcohol. Alcohol may be their only way to connect with people. It can help them relax as it relives stress, some enjoy that it breaks the ice on social situations etc.. Human isnt logical being.

dataengineer56 5y ago
These are all misconceptions that the book addresses. Alcohol does not relieve stress, it deadens senses. To combat stress you need to solve the problem that is causing your stress. Alcohol does not improve confidence, it reduces inhibitions. Inhibitions are essential for being rational and making good decisions. See: people who have a drink and then injure themselves or get into fights.
- giantg2 5y ago
  "Inhibitions are essential for being rational and making good decisions." I wonder if this is part of the reason high IQ individuals are more likely to binge drink and get drunk - to be less rational.
- standardUser 5y ago
  I've read the book (and quit smoking with his other book) but I think he fails to account for the diversity of individual reactions to alcohol as a drug. Some people have an easier time drinking (few problems with addiction, no negative changes to behavior, minimal hangovers) than other people (easily addicted, bad moods/behaviors, disruptive hangovers). It's pretty easy to craft a compelling negative narrative if you're the latter type of drinker. Not so much if you're the former. The same with smoking. I was viscously addicted to smoking and quitting was a living hell. But I've know people who were occasional smokers who decided to stop one day and had no problem doing so.

subungual 5y ago

Not here to proselytize about your lifestyle choices, and I've certainly enjoyed my fair share of smoking and drinking myself over the years. That said, as someone who works daily with patients whose health has been destroyed by excessive drinking or pretty much any level of smoking, it's always been striking to me how surprised people tend to be by the results. A lot of people performing the calculus of "eh, what's five to ten years off the end of my life as long as I'm enjoying it now" seem to think it works neatly like that-- they'll die earlier from cancer or a heart attack, and that's it. I'm struck by how often they are surprised and upset by the fact that instead of that, they're living the last 30 years of their lives with irreversible heart, lung, liver, and vascular issues that leave them unable to do the things they've enjoyed outside of smoking and drinking. Just a thought.

gitfan86 5y ago
The problem with the people you are talking about is that they didn't cut back as soon as they started to have minor medical problems. Having 4 drinks a day for a couple years in your 30s doesn't cause permanent liver damage that will kill you. But continuing to have 4 drinks a day AFTER being told that you are overweight and have elevated blood test results due to drinking can kill you. This becomes even more important as you age. Someone who starts smoking heavily in their 60s is far more likely to get a blood clot than someone in their 20s
- subungual 5y ago
  I fully understand what you're saying, but it's somewhat skew to the point I'm trying to make. The people I'm talking about are the ones who have already baked health effects of their habits into their calculus and claim to acknowledge them. For someone who has already bought into the idea that their smoking or drinking will shorten their lives, an elevated BP reading, finding themselves having trouble taking more than one flight of stairs, or even having some chest or leg pain when they're walking around are unlikely to be major wake-up calls. My point is that people may know the end result, but they generally don't have a sense of what the path to that result looks like and underestimate its effects.
- 5y ago

willcipriano 5y ago

Addiction is defined as encountering substantial consequences for substance use and continuing to use them. Someone who drinks or smokes a few times a year isn't the audience for this sort of thing. If you do it on a regular basis you may want to look closer for consequences, and spend some time away from the drug to see what life is like without it. After doing so if you find the drug makes your life better, or at least causes you no harm, go for it.