7 ms·

>>then push you out the door and tell you to find an AA group. What is it exactly you want the hospital to do if your friend won't stop drinking?

by ejb999 5y ago

dazc 5y ago
Maybe there is something more going on than some person making a conscious decision to keep drinking? I'm not sure what the hospital should do in this exact situation but simply 'pushing someone out of the door' is very likely to have one result and this is the same person coming back through the same door time and time again.
- ejb999 5y ago
  so you don't have any idea what 'they' should do, but clearly it's the hospitals fault. Maybe the 'they' that should do something is you?, but I guess it's actually easier to blame 'them', because 'they' should do something. Even AA doesn't want people that won't admit they have a problem. because 'they' can't do anything for them either. The problem lies with the drinker, if they don't want to stop, they have nobody to blame but themselves. How do you fix a problem that the patient won't admit they have?
  - dazc 5y ago
    What I was trying to say that it would be in the hospital's interest to offer a better solution since it will be that very same hospital that this guy will inevitably return to. I guess you are in the camp that thinks everyone can help themselves? All I would say to this is that there's lots of evidence around you that proves this idea is wrong.
    - ejb999 5y ago
      OK, tell me specifically what a hospital - or anyone else - can do, to 'help' a patient that won't help themselves? Lock them up and dry them out against their will? Should we lock up drug addicts to keep them away from drugs? how about forcing blood pressure meds down the throats of people who are on the verge of a stroke, but won't stay compliant? My guess is you have never worked in primary care, if you did, you would have a very different opinion about the limits of how much you can help someone that won't help themselves, or even admit they have an issue. Easiest thing in the world to say is 'someone should do something', and what you usually mean is 'someone else should do something'.
      - subungual 5y ago
        This person is right that hospitals, or health care systems in general should be working on this. It's more complicated than simply not helping people who won't help themselves. The difficulty is that no one knows the best, most effective systems or approaches for doing this, and emergency medicine resources are stretched very thin here in the United States. Emergency departments were designed for the stabilization of life threats, but in our modern collapsing medical system, limiting their scope to this falls short of community needs. There are many people whose only contact with the medical system will be the ED, and finding ways to treat and integrate them into more sustainable programs should be a goal. There are promising advancements being made, however, in initiating standard of care treatments in emergency department settings. On the opioid front, we can start suboxone in the ED, which has proven a pretty effective method of stabilizing people and increasing their participation in treatment down the road. (1) As someone who is working on this, I don't think it's unfair for people who aren't experts in the field to recognize and call out the fact that something should be done differently. The experts agree, and many of us are trying to figure out a better path forward. 1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4527523/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4527523/
      - dazc 5y ago
        Referral to psychiatric consultation would be a start. There is a reason why people resort to harmful behaviours and without addressing this you are never going to cure the underlying problem. I guess the alternative is to do nothing and expect people to cure themselves purely through sheer will, as, more or less, what happens now? Please explain how this is working?
tyingq 5y ago
Your comment illustrates a large part of the problem. If society believes addiction is mostly a willpower problem, then effective services to help address it won't exist.
- dotancohen 5y ago
  That service exists, though. The hospital specifically referred them to AA.
  - elliekelly 5y ago
    AA is a religious organization. Not everyone wants to be “saved”. Nor should they have to be in order to get treatment for alcoholism.
    - clsec 5y ago
      IMO it's a cult. I spent a lot of my childhood at AA meetings with my alcoholic mother. I am also an alcoholic and struggled for years because the only answer I was ever offered was AA/NA. I tried it for myself a few times (usually to please others) but was always instantly turned off by it's cult like attributes. I eventually found help through a few different paths. disclaimer: my half-sister's mother was in a cult (Alive Polarity Fellowship) for 20 years.
      - franknstein 5y ago
        This might sound rough, but don't you think some brainwashing could help your situation?
        clsec 5y ago
        Well, there was this in my post > "I eventually found help through a few different paths." So thanks anyway but I don't need any help, especially brainwashing. My mind is too analytical to respond to it anyway ;)
      - 5y ago

>>then push you out the door and tell you to find an AA group. What is it exactly you want the hospital to do if your friend won't stop drinking?

by ejb999 5y ago

>>then push you out the door and tell you to find an AA group. What is it exactly you want the hospital to do if your friend won't stop drinking?

dazc 5y ago

Maybe there is something more going on than some person making a conscious decision to keep drinking? I'm not sure what the hospital should do in this exact situation but simply 'pushing someone out of the door' is very likely to have one result and this is the same person coming back through the same door time and time again.

ejb999 5y ago
so you don't have any idea what 'they' should do, but clearly it's the hospitals fault. Maybe the 'they' that should do something is you?, but I guess it's actually easier to blame 'them', because 'they' should do something. Even AA doesn't want people that won't admit they have a problem. because 'they' can't do anything for them either. The problem lies with the drinker, if they don't want to stop, they have nobody to blame but themselves. How do you fix a problem that the patient won't admit they have?
- dazc 5y ago
  What I was trying to say that it would be in the hospital's interest to offer a better solution since it will be that very same hospital that this guy will inevitably return to. I guess you are in the camp that thinks everyone can help themselves? All I would say to this is that there's lots of evidence around you that proves this idea is wrong.
  - ejb999 5y ago
    OK, tell me specifically what a hospital - or anyone else - can do, to 'help' a patient that won't help themselves? Lock them up and dry them out against their will? Should we lock up drug addicts to keep them away from drugs? how about forcing blood pressure meds down the throats of people who are on the verge of a stroke, but won't stay compliant? My guess is you have never worked in primary care, if you did, you would have a very different opinion about the limits of how much you can help someone that won't help themselves, or even admit they have an issue. Easiest thing in the world to say is 'someone should do something', and what you usually mean is 'someone else should do something'.
    - subungual 5y ago
      This person is right that hospitals, or health care systems in general should be working on this. It's more complicated than simply not helping people who won't help themselves. The difficulty is that no one knows the best, most effective systems or approaches for doing this, and emergency medicine resources are stretched very thin here in the United States. Emergency departments were designed for the stabilization of life threats, but in our modern collapsing medical system, limiting their scope to this falls short of community needs. There are many people whose only contact with the medical system will be the ED, and finding ways to treat and integrate them into more sustainable programs should be a goal. There are promising advancements being made, however, in initiating standard of care treatments in emergency department settings. On the opioid front, we can start suboxone in the ED, which has proven a pretty effective method of stabilizing people and increasing their participation in treatment down the road. (1) As someone who is working on this, I don't think it's unfair for people who aren't experts in the field to recognize and call out the fact that something should be done differently. The experts agree, and many of us are trying to figure out a better path forward. 1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4527523/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4527523/
    - dazc 5y ago
      Referral to psychiatric consultation would be a start. There is a reason why people resort to harmful behaviours and without addressing this you are never going to cure the underlying problem. I guess the alternative is to do nothing and expect people to cure themselves purely through sheer will, as, more or less, what happens now? Please explain how this is working?

tyingq 5y ago

Your comment illustrates a large part of the problem. If society believes addiction is mostly a willpower problem, then effective services to help address it won't exist.

dotancohen 5y ago
That service exists, though. The hospital specifically referred them to AA.
- elliekelly 5y ago
  AA is a religious organization. Not everyone wants to be “saved”. Nor should they have to be in order to get treatment for alcoholism.
  - clsec 5y ago
    IMO it's a cult. I spent a lot of my childhood at AA meetings with my alcoholic mother. I am also an alcoholic and struggled for years because the only answer I was ever offered was AA/NA. I tried it for myself a few times (usually to please others) but was always instantly turned off by it's cult like attributes. I eventually found help through a few different paths. disclaimer: my half-sister's mother was in a cult (Alive Polarity Fellowship) for 20 years.
    - franknstein 5y ago
      This might sound rough, but don't you think some brainwashing could help your situation?
      - clsec 5y ago
        Well, there was this in my post > "I eventually found help through a few different paths." So thanks anyway but I don't need any help, especially brainwashing. My mind is too analytical to respond to it anyway ;)
    - 5y ago