5 ms·

Mozilla won't employ its founder because of who he donated money to in 2008. What makes them believe they can champion an open web?

gurumeditations 5y ago
- taylorius 5y ago
  Not supporting same sex marriage != hating gay people.
  - Consultant32452 5y ago
    This need to purge people with wrong-think is going to destroy science and technology advancement. Many, many people who we recognize as major players in our understanding of the universe were absolutely abhorrent on a personal level with terrible ideas about the world. Many people pushing the boundaries of tech are also super high functioning autistics. Punishing them for bad social takes is just punishing a handicapped person because you can't stand the sight of a one-legged person.
  - tuckerman 5y ago
    If someone were going around telling me that they don’t think my husband and I should be married isn’t hate, then I’m not sure hate as a word has a lot of meaning left. This is a bit off topic from the article, but to say why I think that: in the US a great deal of rights are conferred to married couples. Being able to have a child through surrogacy and have both of us presumed parents, being able to visit my husband in the hospital, getting to be on his health insurance. If anyone wishes that we don’t have access to those things but claims to not hate me, I think they are carefully choosing to ignore the ramifications of their opinion. All that said, as it was said elsewhere, Eich wasn’t fired, he resigned because of the backlash. The public has just as much a right to protest and boycott as someone does to spout off hate.
    - sph 5y ago
      > If someone were going around telling me that they don’t think my husband and I should be married isn’t hate, then I’m not sure hate as a word has a lot of meaning left. While I personally am all for same-sex marriage, I think the problem is that hate has too many meanings these days. Any disagreement on hot topics is often construed as hate. The world isn't all hate or love, black and white, with or against us. What you're asking for is conformity. While Eich could have spared his personal controversial thoughts as a tech CEO, like everybody else he is free to think whatever he wants. Voting against someone else's ideals in a democratic process isn't hate; it's called a trick question when only one answer is valid and acceptable.
      - DonHopkins 5y ago
        There's certainly a lot of hate for Mozilla based on the specious argument that actively trying to deny other people the right to marry the person they love isn't hate. That's a pretty lazy and entitled argument to make when you're not on the receiving end of Brendan Eich's irrational homophobia and attempted sabotaging of your own marriage. The word "hate" having too many meanings isn't a problem. People trying to deny other people's humanity and human right to marry the person they love is a problem, whatever word you choose to label it with.
        sph 5y ago
        While I agree on the principle of same-sex marriage and people should be able to do and love whoever they want, > People trying to deny other people's humanity why was Proposition 8, the proposal to ban same-sex marriage, a referendum, if by your standards one choice is good and the other is denying other people's humanity? What is the point of democracy and referendums if one possible answer is deemed incorrect and inhumane a priori? That said, I think we're straying too far off topic, and I usually am one that hates when any discussion about Mozilla or Brave touches on Eich's controversy. So I will stop now.
        DonHopkins 5y ago
taylorius 5y ago
It was certainly damn shoddy that Brendan Eich got pushed out - but then again, that was the start of Brave, which is actually implementing a new vision for the internet (BAT).
- kaba0 5y ago
  > new vision A much shadier one at that.
  - taylorius 5y ago
    Much shadier compared to what? Internet tracking and ad targeting?
coffeeblack 5y ago
For me, that was when I stopped using Firefox (that I had been using since Phoenix 0.1).
DonHopkins 5y ago
- sph 5y ago
  > Brendan Eich was certainly successful at sabotaging Mozilla by turning homophobes and GamerGate trolls against his former employer, and making himself a poster child of the Alt-Right I'm pretty sure he just sabotaged himself. He was a decent CEO but his ideals didn't fit the company, so there was backlash, drama and he resigned. Mozilla didn't suffer permanent damage from Eich's tenure. The current management though, they're actually ruining Mozilla and driving it off a cliff.
  - DonHopkins 5y ago
    - fwn 5y ago
      Mozilla did cancel Eich and the fact that he was resigning out of free will is not in conflict with that assessment. We probably all know from school how easy it is to bully someone into doing quite a lot of ridiculous things out of free will. There is nothing hateful or resentful about recognizing this event and describing it in this specific way, even though there are some people who don't agree with the description. It doesn't make you a troll, "Mozilla-hating", "alt-right", "GamerGate" or part of any other team description. Those are designed to polarize. Labels like that discourage intellectually honest conversation. Mozilla is well known for their problematic culture, irrespective of the whole Eich-event. They make it a brand-statement to demand from their employees to ideologically fall in line behind their leaders. I think they should be allowed to do that, sure. I'm probably, (unfortunately) implicitly supporting it by using their browser. I'm also personally very happy to work in an inclusive, diverse and intellectually open environment where there is no such pressure to conform. I'd personally love to see a Mozilla with this kind of company culture instead of the thing they are doing right now. If someone is criticizing a company it does not need to be founded in hate or the desire to spark conflict. Mozilla is an emotional brand that started with an unusually important mission providing a life-shaping product. I use it for hours a day. Enthusiastic criticism can be motivated by users that care so strongly for the product, they spend their free time taking part debating its future with strangers on the internet. What would other brands give for this kind of engagement.

gurumeditations 5y ago

taylorius 5y ago
Not supporting same sex marriage != hating gay people.
- Consultant32452 5y ago
  This need to purge people with wrong-think is going to destroy science and technology advancement. Many, many people who we recognize as major players in our understanding of the universe were absolutely abhorrent on a personal level with terrible ideas about the world. Many people pushing the boundaries of tech are also super high functioning autistics. Punishing them for bad social takes is just punishing a handicapped person because you can't stand the sight of a one-legged person.
- tuckerman 5y ago
  If someone were going around telling me that they don’t think my husband and I should be married isn’t hate, then I’m not sure hate as a word has a lot of meaning left. This is a bit off topic from the article, but to say why I think that: in the US a great deal of rights are conferred to married couples. Being able to have a child through surrogacy and have both of us presumed parents, being able to visit my husband in the hospital, getting to be on his health insurance. If anyone wishes that we don’t have access to those things but claims to not hate me, I think they are carefully choosing to ignore the ramifications of their opinion. All that said, as it was said elsewhere, Eich wasn’t fired, he resigned because of the backlash. The public has just as much a right to protest and boycott as someone does to spout off hate.
  - sph 5y ago
    > If someone were going around telling me that they don’t think my husband and I should be married isn’t hate, then I’m not sure hate as a word has a lot of meaning left. While I personally am all for same-sex marriage, I think the problem is that hate has too many meanings these days. Any disagreement on hot topics is often construed as hate. The world isn't all hate or love, black and white, with or against us. What you're asking for is conformity. While Eich could have spared his personal controversial thoughts as a tech CEO, like everybody else he is free to think whatever he wants. Voting against someone else's ideals in a democratic process isn't hate; it's called a trick question when only one answer is valid and acceptable.
    - DonHopkins 5y ago
      There's certainly a lot of hate for Mozilla based on the specious argument that actively trying to deny other people the right to marry the person they love isn't hate. That's a pretty lazy and entitled argument to make when you're not on the receiving end of Brendan Eich's irrational homophobia and attempted sabotaging of your own marriage. The word "hate" having too many meanings isn't a problem. People trying to deny other people's humanity and human right to marry the person they love is a problem, whatever word you choose to label it with.
      - sph 5y ago
        While I agree on the principle of same-sex marriage and people should be able to do and love whoever they want, > People trying to deny other people's humanity why was Proposition 8, the proposal to ban same-sex marriage, a referendum, if by your standards one choice is good and the other is denying other people's humanity? What is the point of democracy and referendums if one possible answer is deemed incorrect and inhumane a priori? That said, I think we're straying too far off topic, and I usually am one that hates when any discussion about Mozilla or Brave touches on Eich's controversy. So I will stop now.
        DonHopkins 5y ago

taylorius 5y ago

It was certainly damn shoddy that Brendan Eich got pushed out - but then again, that was the start of Brave, which is actually implementing a new vision for the internet (BAT).

kaba0 5y ago
> new vision A much shadier one at that.
- taylorius 5y ago
  Much shadier compared to what? Internet tracking and ad targeting?

coffeeblack 5y ago

For me, that was when I stopped using Firefox (that I had been using since Phoenix 0.1).

DonHopkins 5y ago

sph 5y ago
> Brendan Eich was certainly successful at sabotaging Mozilla by turning homophobes and GamerGate trolls against his former employer, and making himself a poster child of the Alt-Right I'm pretty sure he just sabotaged himself. He was a decent CEO but his ideals didn't fit the company, so there was backlash, drama and he resigned. Mozilla didn't suffer permanent damage from Eich's tenure. The current management though, they're actually ruining Mozilla and driving it off a cliff.
- DonHopkins 5y ago
  - fwn 5y ago
    Mozilla did cancel Eich and the fact that he was resigning out of free will is not in conflict with that assessment. We probably all know from school how easy it is to bully someone into doing quite a lot of ridiculous things out of free will. There is nothing hateful or resentful about recognizing this event and describing it in this specific way, even though there are some people who don't agree with the description. It doesn't make you a troll, "Mozilla-hating", "alt-right", "GamerGate" or part of any other team description. Those are designed to polarize. Labels like that discourage intellectually honest conversation. Mozilla is well known for their problematic culture, irrespective of the whole Eich-event. They make it a brand-statement to demand from their employees to ideologically fall in line behind their leaders. I think they should be allowed to do that, sure. I'm probably, (unfortunately) implicitly supporting it by using their browser. I'm also personally very happy to work in an inclusive, diverse and intellectually open environment where there is no such pressure to conform. I'd personally love to see a Mozilla with this kind of company culture instead of the thing they are doing right now. If someone is criticizing a company it does not need to be founded in hate or the desire to spark conflict. Mozilla is an emotional brand that started with an unusually important mission providing a life-shaping product. I use it for hours a day. Enthusiastic criticism can be motivated by users that care so strongly for the product, they spend their free time taking part debating its future with strangers on the internet. What would other brands give for this kind of engagement.