5 ms·

The problem is configuration itself. Things should not need configuration. Configuration is for builders, not users. When you buy a car, do you "configure" th

by hsn915 5y ago

The problem is configuration itself. Things should not need configuration. Configuration is for builders, not users. When you buy a car, do you "configure" the gearbox? The engine? Imagine yourself buying a car, and the car dealer starts to ask you "where would you like to place the gas tank?" or "How many pipes do you want going from the engine to the gas tank?". Oh and by the way, if you place the gas tank in the wrong place or choose the wrong number or placement for pipes, the car won't start at all; it might even blow up! This is basically what debian is asking the user to do.

egberts1 5y ago
That’s why pressing enter several times for a manufacturer-recommended default setting works for most car drivers, oh wait, I meant end-users. Mean Time to Consult the Manufacturing Specs (MTTCTM, or HOWTOs) should be cut down … drastically. Oh yeah, say “YES” to that fancy option of the Positron rear axle (cue in increase to manufacturing delivery time). This is the Information Age! You’ve only lost the “trial period” to get it right.
jeroenhd 5y ago
If you're comparing configuration to a car, the builders would be the people hosting the software and the users would be the people logging in from the web interface. Software drivers are the people that use Gmail, iCloud, Fastmail, you name it. Self hosting means building your own alternative, for better or for worse. For comparison, I can order a gearbox but I've never been under a car, let alone worked on one. If I want a specific gearbox because I like the feel of it, I'll need to learn how to install it or pay someone to do that for me. If I'll ever need a car, I'll probably buy one with all the components I need, and with no real preference for the technology underneath. Debian is a tool to build your own car. If configuration is too difficult, use a tool designed for your use case instead. There are plenty of big-name brands like Amazon or Google, or smaller brands like shared hosts that will do all the difficult parts for you. Stuff some PHP files on your favourite shared host and follow the five step install guide and you're up and running. Of course defaults still matter, but people just sticking to the defaults often find that their niche use cases don't align with the defaults. Defaults merely provide most of the right work flows to most users.
- egberts1 5y ago
  That! There is still no default setting for a properly run email server. Gotta configure some 5 different packages worth of 600 settings.
  - jeroenhd 5y ago
    I'm a big fan of Mailcow (https://mailcow.email/ https://mailcow.email/). You can get it running with just docker-compose up, updating is a breeze, and it brings you a fully fledged mail server with tons of good defaults (and tons of other settings you can manage via the web interface). The web mail UI (SoGo) is clearly directed at organisations but it's very pleasant to work with. Their admin interface makes it possible for mere mortals to have a mail server with spam filtering, antivirus scanning, multiple domains, (temporary) mail aliases, catch-alls, batched IMAP-sync from external mail servers, mandatory TLS for incoming and outgoing emails per mailbox, you name it. They even give you all that control if you buy a managed service from them, which is frankly stunning for a small, independent mail service. You still need to copy the necessary DNS records like MX/SPF/DKIM/DMARC records, but the web UI generates them for you and also checks if they're set correctly. It also does some autoconfig for clients like Thunderbird and Outlook and supports ActiveSync. Contacts and calendar are synced through a cut-down version of Nextcloud (not very usable for much else, though) so you can have the necessary *dav sync for IMAP/POP3 clients, but you'd need to set that up manually if ActiveSync isn't available on your client. If you also host other stuff on your server, you may need to add the necessary reverse proxy config and disable the built-in Let's Encrypt support, but if you only use that server for mail then you're fine without. Honestly, Mailcow on a cheap server is good enough that I think most people with some Linux skills can run their own mail server now. Hell, the server even comes with stuff like basic office resource management (like reserving a conference room for a meeting). If you're willing to take the risk of being responsible for backups and such, you could quite comfortably get your family or a small business on Mailcow. Alternatively, mail-in-a-box provides a full setup, including the necessary OS stuff, for a dedicated mail server. I've found that to be using a lot of deprecated technology though, and there's no way to use it if you also host other stuff on your server. They solve the DNS issue by making your servers an authoritative DNS server, which I'm also not too big of a fan of. Nothing too bad, just a different take on the same concept that didn't work well for me.

by hsn915 5y ago

egberts1 5y ago

That’s why pressing enter several times for a manufacturer-recommended default setting works for most car drivers, oh wait, I meant end-users. Mean Time to Consult the Manufacturing Specs (MTTCTM, or HOWTOs) should be cut down … drastically. Oh yeah, say “YES” to that fancy option of the Positron rear axle (cue in increase to manufacturing delivery time). This is the Information Age! You’ve only lost the “trial period” to get it right.

jeroenhd 5y ago

If you're comparing configuration to a car, the builders would be the people hosting the software and the users would be the people logging in from the web interface. Software drivers are the people that use Gmail, iCloud, Fastmail, you name it. Self hosting means building your own alternative, for better or for worse. For comparison, I can order a gearbox but I've never been under a car, let alone worked on one. If I want a specific gearbox because I like the feel of it, I'll need to learn how to install it or pay someone to do that for me. If I'll ever need a car, I'll probably buy one with all the components I need, and with no real preference for the technology underneath. Debian is a tool to build your own car. If configuration is too difficult, use a tool designed for your use case instead. There are plenty of big-name brands like Amazon or Google, or smaller brands like shared hosts that will do all the difficult parts for you. Stuff some PHP files on your favourite shared host and follow the five step install guide and you're up and running. Of course defaults still matter, but people just sticking to the defaults often find that their niche use cases don't align with the defaults. Defaults merely provide most of the right work flows to most users.

egberts1 5y ago
That! There is still no default setting for a properly run email server. Gotta configure some 5 different packages worth of 600 settings.
- jeroenhd 5y ago
  I'm a big fan of Mailcow (https://mailcow.email/ https://mailcow.email/). You can get it running with just docker-compose up, updating is a breeze, and it brings you a fully fledged mail server with tons of good defaults (and tons of other settings you can manage via the web interface). The web mail UI (SoGo) is clearly directed at organisations but it's very pleasant to work with. Their admin interface makes it possible for mere mortals to have a mail server with spam filtering, antivirus scanning, multiple domains, (temporary) mail aliases, catch-alls, batched IMAP-sync from external mail servers, mandatory TLS for incoming and outgoing emails per mailbox, you name it. They even give you all that control if you buy a managed service from them, which is frankly stunning for a small, independent mail service. You still need to copy the necessary DNS records like MX/SPF/DKIM/DMARC records, but the web UI generates them for you and also checks if they're set correctly. It also does some autoconfig for clients like Thunderbird and Outlook and supports ActiveSync. Contacts and calendar are synced through a cut-down version of Nextcloud (not very usable for much else, though) so you can have the necessary *dav sync for IMAP/POP3 clients, but you'd need to set that up manually if ActiveSync isn't available on your client. If you also host other stuff on your server, you may need to add the necessary reverse proxy config and disable the built-in Let's Encrypt support, but if you only use that server for mail then you're fine without. Honestly, Mailcow on a cheap server is good enough that I think most people with some Linux skills can run their own mail server now. Hell, the server even comes with stuff like basic office resource management (like reserving a conference room for a meeting). If you're willing to take the risk of being responsible for backups and such, you could quite comfortably get your family or a small business on Mailcow. Alternatively, mail-in-a-box provides a full setup, including the necessary OS stuff, for a dedicated mail server. I've found that to be using a lot of deprecated technology though, and there's no way to use it if you also host other stuff on your server. They solve the DNS issue by making your servers an authoritative DNS server, which I'm also not too big of a fan of. Nothing too bad, just a different take on the same concept that didn't work well for me.