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No one never needs to trust copper wires or single transistors. One could, in theory, build an entire computer from discrete components and never have to trust

No one never needs to trust copper wires or single transistors. One could, in theory, build an entire computer from discrete components and never have to trust external hardware or software. Of course, it wouldn't be very practically useful and would be a monumental amount of effort. But hey, it's a cozy thought for those chasing the trust dragon.

nkrisc 5y ago
I think in this context building a computer from individual transistors and copper wire is the same as “invent the universe” for the purposes of the expression.
- dTal 5y ago
  Or baking an apple pie, to feed your electronics engineer? If you're going to carry it to its logical conclusion, "invent the universe" works in any context.
shkkmo 5y ago
AFAIK, we don't currently have the ability to compile any of our software from scratch. Every compilation utilizes digital artifacts that were created externally. To operate a "no trust computer", not only would you have to build the hardware for scratch, but you would also have to recreate more than a half century of collaborative advancements in computer science. This isn't a cozy thought for those "chasing the trust dragon" since it means that a true "no trust computer" is impossible to create for any single individual and even practically impossible for any group operating on a timescale of less than decades.
- willis936 5y ago
  You'd have to make an assembler then a compiler by hand to bootstrap. It's a monumental task, but reasonable to do. The blueprints are all there. Re-implementing modern operating systems and complex languages and the tools that run on them? That's wholly impossible for one human lifetime. This is one of my favorite youtube videos in the past year. https://youtu.be/SJ7lOus1FzQ https://youtu.be/SJ7lOus1FzQ
  - shkkmo 5y ago
    You have to do that and much more. A "self-hosting" basic OS is a great achievement that I am not trying to downplay. However there really aren't any examples that I am aware of where that was achieved without relying on artifacts somewhere up the chain that come from an external source. I would say that achieving any self-hosting OS without relying on external artifacts is well outside one human lifetime. Edit: You have to completely manually bootstrap your hardware design and manufacturing simultaneously with your software.
sliken 5y ago
Heh, check out the precursor. No blobs, serious concern over even simple chips like display controllers and keyboards. They implemented the risc-v CPU in an FPGA with opensource files, etc. Definitely the most trustworthy computer I've seen.

nkrisc 5y ago

I think in this context building a computer from individual transistors and copper wire is the same as “invent the universe” for the purposes of the expression.

dTal 5y ago
Or baking an apple pie, to feed your electronics engineer? If you're going to carry it to its logical conclusion, "invent the universe" works in any context.

shkkmo 5y ago

AFAIK, we don't currently have the ability to compile any of our software from scratch. Every compilation utilizes digital artifacts that were created externally. To operate a "no trust computer", not only would you have to build the hardware for scratch, but you would also have to recreate more than a half century of collaborative advancements in computer science. This isn't a cozy thought for those "chasing the trust dragon" since it means that a true "no trust computer" is impossible to create for any single individual and even practically impossible for any group operating on a timescale of less than decades.

willis936 5y ago
You'd have to make an assembler then a compiler by hand to bootstrap. It's a monumental task, but reasonable to do. The blueprints are all there. Re-implementing modern operating systems and complex languages and the tools that run on them? That's wholly impossible for one human lifetime. This is one of my favorite youtube videos in the past year. https://youtu.be/SJ7lOus1FzQ https://youtu.be/SJ7lOus1FzQ
- shkkmo 5y ago
  You have to do that and much more. A "self-hosting" basic OS is a great achievement that I am not trying to downplay. However there really aren't any examples that I am aware of where that was achieved without relying on artifacts somewhere up the chain that come from an external source. I would say that achieving any self-hosting OS without relying on external artifacts is well outside one human lifetime. Edit: You have to completely manually bootstrap your hardware design and manufacturing simultaneously with your software.

sliken 5y ago

Heh, check out the precursor. No blobs, serious concern over even simple chips like display controllers and keyboards. They implemented the risc-v CPU in an FPGA with opensource files, etc. Definitely the most trustworthy computer I've seen.