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>you check on Umberto Eco's scale I will freely admit I am not versed on that, however in my very very brief reading of the idea's I think there is a lot of s

by syshum 5y ago

>you check on Umberto Eco's scale I will freely admit I am not versed on that, however in my very very brief reading of the idea's I think there is a lot of subjectivity in application, and one it seems to me right now one would have to look at Trumps words in the most unfavorable understanding of them to achieve that score, you have to weak man his speeches and rhetoric to get there. You have to come into the speech looking for anything to justify the score. I would have to research more to say more, but when most people hear fascism they think Nazi's... That is also what the US Media rhetoric was for 4 years. I however see non of that in the Trump presidency, nor do I see any policy positions that were wildly different that other presidents or even Biden today. In fact some of the immigration policies that the media and others lambasted Trump for as "fascist" or "Nazi" have been continued and even expanded by Biden, others were carry overs from Obama so.... So while you may get that from Umberto Eco's scale, for which I am unfamiliar, I do not see it or accept that conclusion on a layman's view of fascism >> EU countries would slowly have left NATO and concentrated on building a unified army. Germany would love that, and that is one of the reasons UK left. If it happens the EU needs to reform under a more Federalist model like the US. Its current model it would be a disaster to form a single military The EU either needs to reform its governance to a Federalist Republic like the US, or it needs to take over NATO like structure for is over arching military. Attempting a single defense structure under the current European Union structure would never work >It would be interesting to try and see where this discourse originates from. Many many many things, on core one was the shipping and outsourcing of middle class jobs via unfavorable trade deals allowed by a government that supported globalism and global corporations over the needs of the citizens. That would be where the issue started. I would say it really kicked off in the 1990's when trade started to ramp way up with China. But there are other examples, most recently Climate Change is a good example. US has improved and continues to drastically improve its carbon footprint, but no matter what we do it is never enough, no people want us to hamstring our economy, wants us to kill our economic output, and want us to lower our standard of living While making exceptions for other economies for all manner of seemingly rational reasons. However rational they are the end result is the same, the sacrifice of US prosperity Then of course you have the topic of expecting to be the world police and then called a bully if we take any action, The world wants us there to Stop Russia, but they expect us to do that with out thanks, with out having any input to their actions, their governance, or etc... Hell they want us to thank them for the privilege of being able to send our citizens to die for their nation.... >>So, if I understand correctly, you're basically agreeing with EU leaders that Trump's US was not a reliable ally? Perhaps not an ally at all? I guess that would depend on what you mean by an "ally". If you mean trade partner and willing to come to the EU defense military if needed provided they at least tried to defend themselves... I think the US under Trump would make a fine ally under that definition If you mean a EU doorstop, to provide the common defense of the EU, asking or expecting nothing in return, and allowing the EU to ignore our national interests on the world stage while they enjoy the protection we provide... then no Trump would not have made for a good Ally.. and the EU is used to the former, where I would prefer the former

Yoric 5y ago
> In fact some of the immigration policies that the media and others lambasted Trump for as "fascist" or "Nazi" have been continued and even expanded by Biden, others were carry overs from Obama so.... I'm not going to defend media. I think that most of them are doing a very bad job, whether they're catering to left-wing bubbles or right-wing bubbles. This seems to be worse in the US than in Europe, but we're getting there, too. Now, I do not know exactly why you and I focus on different things in political figure's speeches, but you seem to be very much more of a (political) believer than anybody I know. While I always vote, and while I grudgingly respect some candidates, I know that I haven't trusted anyone in a while. In particular, whenever I read the written statements of a candidate (and I pretty much always do before voting) or when I listen to their speeches (less often), I always work at decoding them. I listen to what they say, to what they imply, to who they flatter, to what they don't say, to the promises they make because that is what they intend to do and to those they make simply to sow doubt in the opposition. So far, while I can't claim perfection, my decoding of elected officials has proven fairly accurate. If you're interested in such an exercise, I suggest reading propaganda from other countries (that helps keeping it dispassionate) and/or older historical periods. It's very interesting. For one thing, it's pretty much the same propaganda, repeated all over space-time, just with some name-changing. > So while you may get that from Umberto Eco's scale, for which I am unfamiliar, I do not see it or accept that conclusion on a layman's view of fascism That is, of course, your right. But, out of curiosity, how would you detect if a US candidate was actually a fascist? Or, maybe, to keep it more remote and make things a bit less passionate, if an Austrian candidate was actually a fascist? > Germany would love that, and that is one of the reasons UK left. If it happens the EU needs to reform under a more Federalist model like the US. Its current model it would be a disaster to form a single military I happen to be in favour of that, so I'm not going to contradict you :) > Many many many things, on core one was the shipping and outsourcing of middle class jobs via unfavorable trade deals allowed by a government that supported globalism and global corporations over the needs of the citizens. That would be where the issue started. I would say it really kicked off in the 1990's when trade started to ramp way up with China. Maybe, but I'm fairly certain that I already heard/read such speeches from the 80s. I don't claim that this is when they started but my personal suspicion is that Reagan/Thatcher both giving such speeches and ramped up globalism and that the reason for which they were adopting such language is the oil shock of the mid-70s, which caused stagflation, hence discontent among the lower- and middle-classes. > But there are other examples, most recently Climate Change is a good example. US has improved and continues to drastically improve its carbon footprint, but no matter what we do it is never enough, no people want us to hamstring our economy, wants us to kill our economic output, and want us to lower our standard of living I've heard Donald Trump make such claims. I actually have no clue where he gets that from. My suspicion as a cynical middle-aged guy is that this is more part of a strategy to cater to specific groups of voters (e.g. everybody whose living is based on coal, directly or indirectly) and build a shared identity as victims of bad actors than actual fact. It's interesting, because on the same topic, in Europe, with the exception of far-left and far-right, the overall message is closer to "let's create jobs with green industries". And recently, of course, "let's use green industries to reduce our dependency towards Russia without increasing our dependency towards US". On the other hand, both far-left and far-right use pretty much the same rhetoric as Trump: "stop annoying us with Climate Change, we're doing so much better than everyone else and you're taking away our jobs". It's really funny to see European communists and US Republicans saying the same things, just with different names. > Then of course you have the topic of expecting to be the world police and then called a bully if we take any action, The world wants us there to Stop Russia, but they expect us to do that with out thanks, with out having any input to their actions, their governance, or etc... Hell they want us to thank them for the privilege of being able to send our citizens to die for their nation.... Yes, being world police is a complicated position. For better or worse, no country wants to lose its independence, even to the US. European our South-American citizens, for instance, have never been very happy at US election interference on their territories (some of which is now declassified – of course, the KGB/FSB won't declassify their own election interference). Just as African citizens aren't very happy at European (and Chinese?) election interference on their territories, because let's not forget that European countries haven't entirely stopped played world police and that China has started, too. On the other hand, it's hard to overstate the kind of power granted by being king of the world, or of a region. Grant it to any country, whether a dictatorship or a democracy, and you can be certain that it will use it for its own gains. European countries did, and still do. The US did and still does. It's not by accident that China is attempting to grab every bit of soft power that the US is letting go. Trump-style (or Lindbergh-style, etc.) isolationism is about giving up both the responsibility and the power. It is a valid choice, but it is full of consequences, some of which are hard to fathom. > I guess that would depend on what you mean by an "ally". If you mean trade partner and willing to come to the EU defense military if needed provided they at least tried to defend themselves... I think the US under Trump would make a fine ally under that definition Maybe. I don't think that EU leaders saw it that way. One of the many examples of interesting choices in international relationships during the Trump admin was when, during the same week, Trump was: - demanding that EU countries ramp up their investment in NATO; - essentially trying to disentangle the US from NATO; - mocking EU leadership (I think it was Macron at the time?) for attempting to improve European defenses; - trying to convince some Eastern European countries (I forget which ones) to leave the EU. The overall message for this was not that of a potential ally. At best, a competitor probing for weaknesses.

by syshum 5y ago

Yoric 5y ago

> In fact some of the immigration policies that the media and others lambasted Trump for as "fascist" or "Nazi" have been continued and even expanded by Biden, others were carry overs from Obama so.... I'm not going to defend media. I think that most of them are doing a very bad job, whether they're catering to left-wing bubbles or right-wing bubbles. This seems to be worse in the US than in Europe, but we're getting there, too. Now, I do not know exactly why you and I focus on different things in political figure's speeches, but you seem to be very much more of a (political) believer than anybody I know. While I always vote, and while I grudgingly respect some candidates, I know that I haven't trusted anyone in a while. In particular, whenever I read the written statements of a candidate (and I pretty much always do before voting) or when I listen to their speeches (less often), I always work at decoding them. I listen to what they say, to what they imply, to who they flatter, to what they don't say, to the promises they make because that is what they intend to do and to those they make simply to sow doubt in the opposition. So far, while I can't claim perfection, my decoding of elected officials has proven fairly accurate. If you're interested in such an exercise, I suggest reading propaganda from other countries (that helps keeping it dispassionate) and/or older historical periods. It's very interesting. For one thing, it's pretty much the same propaganda, repeated all over space-time, just with some name-changing. > So while you may get that from Umberto Eco's scale, for which I am unfamiliar, I do not see it or accept that conclusion on a layman's view of fascism That is, of course, your right. But, out of curiosity, how would you detect if a US candidate was actually a fascist? Or, maybe, to keep it more remote and make things a bit less passionate, if an Austrian candidate was actually a fascist? > Germany would love that, and that is one of the reasons UK left. If it happens the EU needs to reform under a more Federalist model like the US. Its current model it would be a disaster to form a single military I happen to be in favour of that, so I'm not going to contradict you :) > Many many many things, on core one was the shipping and outsourcing of middle class jobs via unfavorable trade deals allowed by a government that supported globalism and global corporations over the needs of the citizens. That would be where the issue started. I would say it really kicked off in the 1990's when trade started to ramp way up with China. Maybe, but I'm fairly certain that I already heard/read such speeches from the 80s. I don't claim that this is when they started but my personal suspicion is that Reagan/Thatcher both giving such speeches and ramped up globalism and that the reason for which they were adopting such language is the oil shock of the mid-70s, which caused stagflation, hence discontent among the lower- and middle-classes. > But there are other examples, most recently Climate Change is a good example. US has improved and continues to drastically improve its carbon footprint, but no matter what we do it is never enough, no people want us to hamstring our economy, wants us to kill our economic output, and want us to lower our standard of living I've heard Donald Trump make such claims. I actually have no clue where he gets that from. My suspicion as a cynical middle-aged guy is that this is more part of a strategy to cater to specific groups of voters (e.g. everybody whose living is based on coal, directly or indirectly) and build a shared identity as victims of bad actors than actual fact. It's interesting, because on the same topic, in Europe, with the exception of far-left and far-right, the overall message is closer to "let's create jobs with green industries". And recently, of course, "let's use green industries to reduce our dependency towards Russia without increasing our dependency towards US". On the other hand, both far-left and far-right use pretty much the same rhetoric as Trump: "stop annoying us with Climate Change, we're doing so much better than everyone else and you're taking away our jobs". It's really funny to see European communists and US Republicans saying the same things, just with different names. > Then of course you have the topic of expecting to be the world police and then called a bully if we take any action, The world wants us there to Stop Russia, but they expect us to do that with out thanks, with out having any input to their actions, their governance, or etc... Hell they want us to thank them for the privilege of being able to send our citizens to die for their nation.... Yes, being world police is a complicated position. For better or worse, no country wants to lose its independence, even to the US. European our South-American citizens, for instance, have never been very happy at US election interference on their territories (some of which is now declassified – of course, the KGB/FSB won't declassify their own election interference). Just as African citizens aren't very happy at European (and Chinese?) election interference on their territories, because let's not forget that European countries haven't entirely stopped played world police and that China has started, too. On the other hand, it's hard to overstate the kind of power granted by being king of the world, or of a region. Grant it to any country, whether a dictatorship or a democracy, and you can be certain that it will use it for its own gains. European countries did, and still do. The US did and still does. It's not by accident that China is attempting to grab every bit of soft power that the US is letting go. Trump-style (or Lindbergh-style, etc.) isolationism is about giving up both the responsibility and the power. It is a valid choice, but it is full of consequences, some of which are hard to fathom. > I guess that would depend on what you mean by an "ally". If you mean trade partner and willing to come to the EU defense military if needed provided they at least tried to defend themselves... I think the US under Trump would make a fine ally under that definition Maybe. I don't think that EU leaders saw it that way. One of the many examples of interesting choices in international relationships during the Trump admin was when, during the same week, Trump was: - demanding that EU countries ramp up their investment in NATO; - essentially trying to disentangle the US from NATO; - mocking EU leadership (I think it was Macron at the time?) for attempting to improve European defenses; - trying to convince some Eastern European countries (I forget which ones) to leave the EU. The overall message for this was not that of a potential ally. At best, a competitor probing for weaknesses.