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> - tuition was definitely overpriced IMO, this is the essence of why ISAs have become so scammy. ISA-based bootcamps are doing a fantastic job of competing a

> - tuition was definitely overpriced IMO, this is the essence of why ISAs have become so scammy. ISA-based bootcamps are doing a fantastic job of competing against the perceived cost of a college education. We've all seen news headlines about how private college tuition is reaching $200K. What most people miss is that almost nobody pays full price for college. They have a high headline number for the wealthiest families, but virtually everyone else pays a fraction of this cost or some times nothing at all. People see the "$30K" price tag for Lambda School and other programs and assume it's a steal, yet most in-state tuitions are in the same range and provide substantially more education. I've also been completely stunned by how bad some of these programs are. I took the bait about Lambda School back when PG was promoting it all over Twitter, but it has been a terrible disappointment for the small handful of bright students I've known who went through it. Maybe it's changed, but at the time it felt like they were paying $30K of future earnings to have an inexperienced person point them to simple tutorials that they could have found by themselves online. They were basically paying for the certificate that said they completed the program, which is ironically the stereotype that people were using for 4-year colleges at the time.

culi 5y ago
I totally agree. A lot of people talk about ISA being scams and I basically agree. But I don't think it's a scam in how they assume. If you do your research most ISA agreements are good about being more straightforward than most other types of loans. The scam is usually solely in the principle amount being charged. That being said, I think ISAs are actually partially successful in that they provided a way for someone broke like me to try something and not have to worry too much about the impact if it doesn't end up succeeding. I wish people in my position had more negotiating power to avoid being overcharged, but that's not a problem unique to ISAs
- catlifeonmars 5y ago
  To put it another way, it’s a high risk loan from the perspective of the ISA lender — which they offset with a high premium to get around the adverse selection are problem. It’s basically a mirror image of the problem that insurance providers face.
leetcrew 5y ago
> People see the "$30K" price tag for Lambda School and other programs and assume it's a steal, yet most in-state tuitions are in the same range and provide substantially more education. on the other hand, the time cost of a bachelor's in CS is much higher than that of an 8 month (?) bootcamp. four years is a long time to spend treading water wrt employable skills. I do feel that the degree is better long-term if it's at all possible. but that's not realistic for everyone. if at the end of the bootcamp you get a decent job that you wouldn't have otherwise, that seems like a good deal. if not, you're out a lot less money and time than flunking out of undergrad halfway through.
- Retric 5y ago
  > four years is a long time to spend treading water wrt employable skills Internships during school can be a massive salary increase for many people. Even 25+$/hour is quite a large pay bump for a large chunk of the population, and many internships go well past that.
  - leetcrew 5y ago
    good point. getting an internship for summer and maybe fall/spring part time is a good way to defray the opportunity cost of not having a full-time job for four years. I think you have to be a pretty strong student and well organized to get an internship before junior year though.
- munk-a 5y ago
  > four years is a long time to spend treading water wrt employable skills. Only if your sole goal in life is the pursuit of money. Most of the people I know enjoyed their time at university, they got to learn in a structured manner about philosophy and other interesting topics while having freedom to indulge in intellectual curiosity. Life isn't a race to get on a career path. I do agree that flunking out is probably the worst outcome though, so if academia isn't for you don't feel pressured to pursue it - it certainly won't make any difference in terms of your job prospects by the time you're 30 as a developer. We just need to stop treating university as a vocational training session.
brian_cloutier 5y ago
> What most people miss is that almost nobody pays full price for college. They have a high headline number for the wealthiest families, but virtually everyone else pays a fraction of this cost or some times nothing at all. You're using this statement to claim that college is not actually expensive but I'm pretty sure it supports the opposite claim. Anecdotally, I was accepted into a range of universities and ended up picking ~ the worst one because that was the university which gave me the best scholarships. If college is extremely expensive then it makes perfect sense that the only people paying full price are the people who have a lot of money: everybody else is filtered out by the high price.

culi 5y ago

I totally agree. A lot of people talk about ISA being scams and I basically agree. But I don't think it's a scam in how they assume. If you do your research most ISA agreements are good about being more straightforward than most other types of loans. The scam is usually solely in the principle amount being charged. That being said, I think ISAs are actually partially successful in that they provided a way for someone broke like me to try something and not have to worry too much about the impact if it doesn't end up succeeding. I wish people in my position had more negotiating power to avoid being overcharged, but that's not a problem unique to ISAs

catlifeonmars 5y ago
To put it another way, it’s a high risk loan from the perspective of the ISA lender — which they offset with a high premium to get around the adverse selection are problem. It’s basically a mirror image of the problem that insurance providers face.

leetcrew 5y ago

> People see the "$30K" price tag for Lambda School and other programs and assume it's a steal, yet most in-state tuitions are in the same range and provide substantially more education. on the other hand, the time cost of a bachelor's in CS is much higher than that of an 8 month (?) bootcamp. four years is a long time to spend treading water wrt employable skills. I do feel that the degree is better long-term if it's at all possible. but that's not realistic for everyone. if at the end of the bootcamp you get a decent job that you wouldn't have otherwise, that seems like a good deal. if not, you're out a lot less money and time than flunking out of undergrad halfway through.

Retric 5y ago
> four years is a long time to spend treading water wrt employable skills Internships during school can be a massive salary increase for many people. Even 25+$/hour is quite a large pay bump for a large chunk of the population, and many internships go well past that.
- leetcrew 5y ago
  good point. getting an internship for summer and maybe fall/spring part time is a good way to defray the opportunity cost of not having a full-time job for four years. I think you have to be a pretty strong student and well organized to get an internship before junior year though.
munk-a 5y ago
> four years is a long time to spend treading water wrt employable skills. Only if your sole goal in life is the pursuit of money. Most of the people I know enjoyed their time at university, they got to learn in a structured manner about philosophy and other interesting topics while having freedom to indulge in intellectual curiosity. Life isn't a race to get on a career path. I do agree that flunking out is probably the worst outcome though, so if academia isn't for you don't feel pressured to pursue it - it certainly won't make any difference in terms of your job prospects by the time you're 30 as a developer. We just need to stop treating university as a vocational training session.

brian_cloutier 5y ago

> What most people miss is that almost nobody pays full price for college. They have a high headline number for the wealthiest families, but virtually everyone else pays a fraction of this cost or some times nothing at all. You're using this statement to claim that college is not actually expensive but I'm pretty sure it supports the opposite claim. Anecdotally, I was accepted into a range of universities and ended up picking ~ the worst one because that was the university which gave me the best scholarships. If college is extremely expensive then it makes perfect sense that the only people paying full price are the people who have a lot of money: everybody else is filtered out by the high price.