4 ms·

Everybody is complex and complicated. No one is all good or all bad. Obituaries are a short way of honoring the good in people while biographers can flesh out t

Everybody is complex and complicated. No one is all good or all bad. Obituaries are a short way of honoring the good in people while biographers can flesh out the complexities that show our poor choices.

kennywinker 5y ago
The bad that most of us do in our lifetimes doesn't reach the geopolitical scale. When it does, it seems negligent to ignore it when they pass. This idea of honoring the good in the dead is also arbitrarily applied. An obituary of Osama Bin Laden wouldn't neglect to mention his involvement in 9/11.
- zaat 5y ago
  That depends on the obituary's avenue. Pretty sure that any obituary published where it matter to his family and close friends highlighted 9/11 with pride.
  - kennywinker 5y ago
    I'm doubtful that this is true, as I believe bin laden is seen as an extremist by most, but even if it is true - that's the same thing I'm talking about. Celebrating what you see as the "good" someone did, without acknowledging the bad. Even if you cheered for 9/11 - you would not have cheered when it resulted in countless civilian deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan.
    - zaat 5y ago
      I don't even get what you doubt. Bin laden was a leader of an international organization dedicated to his ideas. Their agenda is extremist by most, but that leaves big group of people, arguably even a country, that welcome it as the true will of Allah. They have papers and they publish books. There's a place for many people on the fringe. I just read the Economist's Obituary someone linked above, which is good and somewhat disorienting. The last sentence is a quote of him with exact negation of what you say about cheering - (spoiler alert - it is probably better to read the whole thing before the quote) - The difference between pure Muslims and Americans, he said, was that Americans loved life, whereas Muslims loved death. https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https://www.economist.com/obituary/2011/05/05/osama-bin-laden https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https://www.economist.com/obituary/2...
      - kennywinker 5y ago
        All that says is that bin laden himself was proud of his legacy. I'm sure his followers are too. But of all the people in the world, his followers are a fraction of a sliver of a hair - and there is no country that is ruled by his followers. L. Ron Hubbard had thousands of followers, but to conflate an internal Scientology paper obituary with "any obituary published where it matter to his family and close friends" would be a mistake.
        zaat 5y ago
        What you say is true, luckily. But I honestly don't understand what are you are arguing for, you mean that you believe that his wives and followers couldn't find solacing obituary to read? if so than I'm firmly believe that you are wrong, but I'm not going to search for it as this isn't the kind of things I want to engage with - the Economist's was more than enough for me. And if you are right on this and I'm wrong, well, even better. Edit, in response to OP edit: I am not sure if Hubbard is comparable, I don't know if his family and followers cared about what the NYT write about him, for example. But Bin Laden's followers don't care much for the approval of outsiders, that's pretty obvious.
- mynameisash 5y ago
  I actually immediately thought of The Economist's obit on bin Laden: https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https://www.economist.com/obituary/2011/05/05/osama-bin-laden https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https://www.economist.com/obituary/2...
zaat 5y ago
Also, bad things are often not known until sometime after the people died. Anyway, it is much more civilized to honor the deceased family during their mourning. There's plenty of pages to fill in future newspaper articles and history books.
- someotherperson 5y ago
  Knowing that people have died, she gave her personal opinion that she personally supported it[0]. That's a large part of the reason why she's disliked. It's because she advocates for genocide. If you replace "Iraqis" with "Jews" and have someone say that the deaths of half a million Jewish children is "worth it" nobody will be in this comment section trying to talk about honoring the deceased or suggesting everyone has good and bad sides. [0] https://youtu.be/RM0uvgHKZe8 https://youtu.be/RM0uvgHKZe8
  - throwaway5752 5y ago
    Those sanctions were imposed as a response to an evil act (invasion of a neighboring country, Kuwait). Hussein could have not committed the evil act in the first place. When a dictator does an evil act, they cannot hide behind consequences to their people. That is obviously of great importance in current events, also. It is worth pointing out the sanctions caused human suffering, but the result that led to that comment was retracted by the author: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(05)70470-0/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6... The deaths of Kuwaitis, the deaths of Kurds, the deaths of Southern Iraqis and other dissidents, and any number innocent human beings that died because of the sanctions are tragic... But consequences for crimes belone with the criminal. Hussein killed tens of thousands of Iraqis with chemical weapons over his time in power. He really was a monstrous person.
    - someotherperson 5y ago
      > You can play that video over and over, but the sanctions were imposed as a response to an evil act (invasion of a neighboring country) Should half a million Americans die for each US invasion? If I said it's worth it does that make it OK? > When a dictator does an evil act, they cannot hide behind consequences to their people A dictator, by definition, is not representative of a "people." There is no "their people" in this case. > Also, the result that led to that comment was retracted So the fact that she said it was worth it -- explicit support for it -- doesn't matter because the data might have been wrong? If I was told half a million Jews were killed yesterday and in my position as representative to the UN said it was "worth it" am I absolved if it turned out to be fake news? > Hussein killed tens of thousands of Iraqis with chemical weapons over his time in power This never actually happened. It was just about 2000 people. From what we've learned in this discussion I guess that absolves Saddam for thinking it was worth it to crush the Kurdish uprisings. Great chatting. I won't be participating any further though.
vkou 5y ago
Obituaries are also a short way of white-washing the incredible number of bad things that their subject has done. It's convention that they don't speak ill of the dead. A convention that overwhelmingly benefits the legacies of people who have inflicted disproportionate amounts of misery and suffering in life.

kennywinker 5y ago

The bad that most of us do in our lifetimes doesn't reach the geopolitical scale. When it does, it seems negligent to ignore it when they pass. This idea of honoring the good in the dead is also arbitrarily applied. An obituary of Osama Bin Laden wouldn't neglect to mention his involvement in 9/11.

zaat 5y ago
That depends on the obituary's avenue. Pretty sure that any obituary published where it matter to his family and close friends highlighted 9/11 with pride.
- kennywinker 5y ago
  I'm doubtful that this is true, as I believe bin laden is seen as an extremist by most, but even if it is true - that's the same thing I'm talking about. Celebrating what you see as the "good" someone did, without acknowledging the bad. Even if you cheered for 9/11 - you would not have cheered when it resulted in countless civilian deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan.
  - zaat 5y ago
    I don't even get what you doubt. Bin laden was a leader of an international organization dedicated to his ideas. Their agenda is extremist by most, but that leaves big group of people, arguably even a country, that welcome it as the true will of Allah. They have papers and they publish books. There's a place for many people on the fringe. I just read the Economist's Obituary someone linked above, which is good and somewhat disorienting. The last sentence is a quote of him with exact negation of what you say about cheering - (spoiler alert - it is probably better to read the whole thing before the quote) - The difference between pure Muslims and Americans, he said, was that Americans loved life, whereas Muslims loved death. https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https://www.economist.com/obituary/2011/05/05/osama-bin-laden https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https://www.economist.com/obituary/2...
    - kennywinker 5y ago
      All that says is that bin laden himself was proud of his legacy. I'm sure his followers are too. But of all the people in the world, his followers are a fraction of a sliver of a hair - and there is no country that is ruled by his followers. L. Ron Hubbard had thousands of followers, but to conflate an internal Scientology paper obituary with "any obituary published where it matter to his family and close friends" would be a mistake.
      - zaat 5y ago
        What you say is true, luckily. But I honestly don't understand what are you are arguing for, you mean that you believe that his wives and followers couldn't find solacing obituary to read? if so than I'm firmly believe that you are wrong, but I'm not going to search for it as this isn't the kind of things I want to engage with - the Economist's was more than enough for me. And if you are right on this and I'm wrong, well, even better. Edit, in response to OP edit: I am not sure if Hubbard is comparable, I don't know if his family and followers cared about what the NYT write about him, for example. But Bin Laden's followers don't care much for the approval of outsiders, that's pretty obvious.
mynameisash 5y ago
I actually immediately thought of The Economist's obit on bin Laden: https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https://www.economist.com/obituary/2011/05/05/osama-bin-laden https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https://www.economist.com/obituary/2...

zaat 5y ago

Also, bad things are often not known until sometime after the people died. Anyway, it is much more civilized to honor the deceased family during their mourning. There's plenty of pages to fill in future newspaper articles and history books.

someotherperson 5y ago
Knowing that people have died, she gave her personal opinion that she personally supported it[0]. That's a large part of the reason why she's disliked. It's because she advocates for genocide. If you replace "Iraqis" with "Jews" and have someone say that the deaths of half a million Jewish children is "worth it" nobody will be in this comment section trying to talk about honoring the deceased or suggesting everyone has good and bad sides. [0] https://youtu.be/RM0uvgHKZe8 https://youtu.be/RM0uvgHKZe8
- throwaway5752 5y ago
  Those sanctions were imposed as a response to an evil act (invasion of a neighboring country, Kuwait). Hussein could have not committed the evil act in the first place. When a dictator does an evil act, they cannot hide behind consequences to their people. That is obviously of great importance in current events, also. It is worth pointing out the sanctions caused human suffering, but the result that led to that comment was retracted by the author: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(05)70470-0/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6... The deaths of Kuwaitis, the deaths of Kurds, the deaths of Southern Iraqis and other dissidents, and any number innocent human beings that died because of the sanctions are tragic... But consequences for crimes belone with the criminal. Hussein killed tens of thousands of Iraqis with chemical weapons over his time in power. He really was a monstrous person.
  - someotherperson 5y ago
    > You can play that video over and over, but the sanctions were imposed as a response to an evil act (invasion of a neighboring country) Should half a million Americans die for each US invasion? If I said it's worth it does that make it OK? > When a dictator does an evil act, they cannot hide behind consequences to their people A dictator, by definition, is not representative of a "people." There is no "their people" in this case. > Also, the result that led to that comment was retracted So the fact that she said it was worth it -- explicit support for it -- doesn't matter because the data might have been wrong? If I was told half a million Jews were killed yesterday and in my position as representative to the UN said it was "worth it" am I absolved if it turned out to be fake news? > Hussein killed tens of thousands of Iraqis with chemical weapons over his time in power This never actually happened. It was just about 2000 people. From what we've learned in this discussion I guess that absolves Saddam for thinking it was worth it to crush the Kurdish uprisings. Great chatting. I won't be participating any further though.

vkou 5y ago

Obituaries are also a short way of white-washing the incredible number of bad things that their subject has done. It's convention that they don't speak ill of the dead. A convention that overwhelmingly benefits the legacies of people who have inflicted disproportionate amounts of misery and suffering in life.