4 ms·

> ”there's no reason you can't just tell people to take a free class off YouTube, and then have them pay $500 or so to have a project graded” I think there is

by soneca 5y ago

> ”there's no reason you can't just tell people to take a free class off YouTube, and then have them pay $500 or so to have a project graded” I think there is a reason you can’t do that. People won’t learn to program with that. I do not defend Lambda School anymore, but I think you are oversimplifying things to make your point. Which, for me, has the opposite effect of thinking less of your point when you oversimplify like that.

999900000999 5y ago
As far as I'm concerned, that's more than enough to at least give someone an interview If they can complete a difficult project, and get though a whiteboard interview, why not hire them as a junior developer. Just because someone paid 30k for a boot camp doesn't mean they can code.
- runnerup 5y ago
  I think the issue is that there is demand for a reputable (hirable) $3,000-30,000 program which can teach you to program in less time and/or more flexible schedule than traditional university. I think one good solution is Western Governor’s University which falls in that price range and is extremely flexible on timeline. But honestly there are a lot of students who want high quality intensive instruction but cannot attend a top-10/20 university. It’s very very hard for most people to find high quality learning outside of those programs unless you get extremely lucky to be in the Bay Area or at a company which can provide an environment full of experts to learn from.
- Jach 5y ago
  I think the issue being criticized isn't about credentials, which smart companies don't care much about already, but about ability to learn. Your oversimplification of equivalent education being to just watch a free series of videos and get graded on a project has the same flavor as just telling people to teach themselves. I mean, learning on your own is certainly a thing, especially in our field. My own beginnings were self-taught from a book. But structured environments are important, too, and for many people the only chance they'll have of learning something, because they can't or won't otherwise. Does the "cost" (which we're calling a flat $X as if it were paid upfront, ignoring the ISA details) have to be so high for these bootcamps? Probably not, but if you're going to attempt to replicate something like a structured experience, your costs aren't going to be nothing. But that's beside the point, since in the style of "charge more" advice from startup founders, if you're trying to build a business, your cost is what the market lets you get away with, not what some randos on the internet not in your target customer base think is "fair".
  - 999900000999 5y ago
    >has the same flavor as just telling people to teach themselves Worked for me. Noting bad happens if you open up VS code and write bad Python. I wanted to make games with my friends, subsequently I learned enough to get an entry level job. What about the Odin project, that's free. Coursera is very inexpensive. I'd advise at least trying that before blowing 30k. Particularly if these bootcamps are fudging placement numbers.
    - Jach 5y ago
      I agree, it happens, and it's a good idea for people to at least dip their toes in the seemingly infinite free or low cost resources out there to gauge things before spending very much money. (Again ignoring that the whole premise of these ISAs is that you don't spend money except under some reasonable "win" conditions.) But lots of people don't do that. Lots of people can't, even, though with some structure some of them can learn and be as or even more competent than those who took a mostly self-taught immediate-goal route, or self-taught-with-formal-supplementation. Seeing how little pre-college programming experience matters vs. coming in with no programming knowledge is an interesting lesson of doing college. Learning programming is actually complicated, what works for you is not going to work for everyone.
      - JCharante 5y ago
        > Seeing how little pre-college programming experience matters vs. coming in with no programming knowledge is an interesting lesson of doing college. Wait what do you mean by this? I started programming in 6th grade (after begging my dad for a month to spend $50 on a Java textbook) and so the CS portions of college was incredibly easy. When I didn't understand algorithms I just implemented them and learned by doing (and I instantly understood how they could be applied to past projects). I would show up to classes only on the midterm and final days because it was such a headstart. I mostly focused on the humanities because there's nothing the computer science department could teach me that I couldn't teach myself online.
        5y ago
- barry-cotter 5y ago
  > As far as I'm concerned, that's more than enough to at least give someone an interview Are you a person who interviews? If not your opinion is of little weight. If you do hire people I’m sure if you advertise your policy you’ll get lots of people who will be happy to try their luck.

by soneca 5y ago

999900000999 5y ago

As far as I'm concerned, that's more than enough to at least give someone an interview If they can complete a difficult project, and get though a whiteboard interview, why not hire them as a junior developer. Just because someone paid 30k for a boot camp doesn't mean they can code.

runnerup 5y ago
I think the issue is that there is demand for a reputable (hirable) $3,000-30,000 program which can teach you to program in less time and/or more flexible schedule than traditional university. I think one good solution is Western Governor’s University which falls in that price range and is extremely flexible on timeline. But honestly there are a lot of students who want high quality intensive instruction but cannot attend a top-10/20 university. It’s very very hard for most people to find high quality learning outside of those programs unless you get extremely lucky to be in the Bay Area or at a company which can provide an environment full of experts to learn from.
Jach 5y ago
I think the issue being criticized isn't about credentials, which smart companies don't care much about already, but about ability to learn. Your oversimplification of equivalent education being to just watch a free series of videos and get graded on a project has the same flavor as just telling people to teach themselves. I mean, learning on your own is certainly a thing, especially in our field. My own beginnings were self-taught from a book. But structured environments are important, too, and for many people the only chance they'll have of learning something, because they can't or won't otherwise. Does the "cost" (which we're calling a flat $X as if it were paid upfront, ignoring the ISA details) have to be so high for these bootcamps? Probably not, but if you're going to attempt to replicate something like a structured experience, your costs aren't going to be nothing. But that's beside the point, since in the style of "charge more" advice from startup founders, if you're trying to build a business, your cost is what the market lets you get away with, not what some randos on the internet not in your target customer base think is "fair".
- 999900000999 5y ago
  >has the same flavor as just telling people to teach themselves Worked for me. Noting bad happens if you open up VS code and write bad Python. I wanted to make games with my friends, subsequently I learned enough to get an entry level job. What about the Odin project, that's free. Coursera is very inexpensive. I'd advise at least trying that before blowing 30k. Particularly if these bootcamps are fudging placement numbers.
  - Jach 5y ago
    I agree, it happens, and it's a good idea for people to at least dip their toes in the seemingly infinite free or low cost resources out there to gauge things before spending very much money. (Again ignoring that the whole premise of these ISAs is that you don't spend money except under some reasonable "win" conditions.) But lots of people don't do that. Lots of people can't, even, though with some structure some of them can learn and be as or even more competent than those who took a mostly self-taught immediate-goal route, or self-taught-with-formal-supplementation. Seeing how little pre-college programming experience matters vs. coming in with no programming knowledge is an interesting lesson of doing college. Learning programming is actually complicated, what works for you is not going to work for everyone.
    - JCharante 5y ago
      > Seeing how little pre-college programming experience matters vs. coming in with no programming knowledge is an interesting lesson of doing college. Wait what do you mean by this? I started programming in 6th grade (after begging my dad for a month to spend $50 on a Java textbook) and so the CS portions of college was incredibly easy. When I didn't understand algorithms I just implemented them and learned by doing (and I instantly understood how they could be applied to past projects). I would show up to classes only on the midterm and final days because it was such a headstart. I mostly focused on the humanities because there's nothing the computer science department could teach me that I couldn't teach myself online.
      - 5y ago
barry-cotter 5y ago
> As far as I'm concerned, that's more than enough to at least give someone an interview Are you a person who interviews? If not your opinion is of little weight. If you do hire people I’m sure if you advertise your policy you’ll get lots of people who will be happy to try their luck.