4 ms·

You are a fool if you think militias don't use civilian structures and human shields. War is a dirty affair.

oneoff786 5y ago
Pretty sure those humanitarian corridors and theatres marked “Kids” weren’t hiding militias
Forgeties79 5y ago
Didn't say that wasn't happening. I'm saying the implication that Russia is running a "clean" war is, well, "not true" to keep it diplomatic. Edit: re "you are a fool" maybe tone down the personal attacks?
- legalcorrection 5y ago
  When a military unit operates out of civilian infrastructure, that infrastructure becomes a "clean" target, to use your terminology. That is well-established law of war, accepted by every nation on the planet.
  - Forgeties79 5y ago
    Hard disagree, but it doesn't really matter ultimately. I think we just need to be careful sanitizing Russia's tactics.
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
    > When a military unit operates out of civilian infrastructure, that infrastructure becomes a "clean" target We have zero evidence of the military operating out of civilian infrastructure that doesn't come from Russia. We have independent evidence of the Russian military targeting civilian infrastructure which had zero military presence. Hate to have to look at this kind of stuff, but a 61-day old account parroting Putin's propaganda points doesn't look credible per se.
    - dmix 5y ago
      The mall attack that everyone was so shocked about turned out to be housing a Ukranian MLRS which was documented by a Russian drone (obviously there for multiple days given the amount of tire tracks matching the path it took). https://old.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/comments/tje6ez/the_mod_of_the_russia_publishes_a_video_of_a/ https://old.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/comments/tje6... I personally think - technically - that is a fair target in war / urban combat. But it's also incredibly dangerous and reckless to bomb such a huge building in a city. So there's basically no good rational here if the war itself is not justifiable.
    - orangepurple 5y ago
      I have not been following this conflict closely at all, but the concept carries precedent: https://news.yahoo.com/hamas-rockets-found-second-united-nations-school-224830922.html https://news.yahoo.com/hamas-rockets-found-second-united-nat... In that instance (see link) "Israel bombs UN school in Gaza" doesn't sound very nice.
ericmay 5y ago
Yea, and in this case if you don't invade Ukraine you don't have to worry about any of this stuff.
- legalcorrection 5y ago
  Whether the war was legally initiated or not is totally beside the point of whether the laws of war are observed in its execution. That is why not every Nazi officer was a war criminal, only the ones who committed war crimes, even though they were ultimately carrying out an illegal war of aggression.
  - ericmay 5y ago
    It's not beside the point because you cannot separate the two. Operating the war, from the start is an issue. Even attacking Ukrainian military personnel is an issue, let alone civilians. > That is why not every Nazi officer was a war criminal, only the ones who committed war crimes, even though they were ultimately carrying out an illegal war of aggression. Yes. Hopefully we'll be able to hold these Russian officers accountable. Though I think it's unlikely unless they slip up and travel to the wrong country where the United States and allies have enough sway to extradite and bring these criminals to trial.
  - nwiswell 5y ago
    You're kind of moving the goalposts here. The original assertion is that our attitudes are shaped by Ukrainian propaganda rather than the reality. Certainly it is a fact that this is an illegal war which has resulted in the deaths of thousands of civilians. Whether those deaths were, uh, "procedurally valid" is not really relevant.
  - KoftaBob 5y ago
    ...you're Russian I take it?
jhgb 5y ago
Except Russian soldiers were ordered to kill civilians no matter what, not just attack "civilian structures and human shields".
- vogre 5y ago
  Do you have any proof of that?
  - jhgb 5y ago
    I already posted one testimony above, from a soldier who tried to save some Ukrainians and got shot by his own people for it.
- orangepurple 5y ago
  What you're proposing is a wasted effort when a neutron bomb would do this far more efficiently.
  - jhgb 5y ago
    1) I'm not "proposing" anything. 2) Nobody said that historically, Russians have been perfectly rational. So whatever you think would or would not be appropriate is irrelevant, and in any case recorded facts about events that actually happened trump your feels about those events. 3) Russians may not even be in possession of neutron bombs suitable for ground delivery. The only ones they've had were installed in ABM systems and had a whopping 10 kt yield.
  - Forgeties79 5y ago
    >What you're proposing is a wasted effort when a neutron bomb would do this far more efficiently. Please don't spike the conversation.

Pretty sure those humanitarian corridors and theatres marked “Kids” weren’t hiding militias

Didn't say that wasn't happening. I'm saying the implication that Russia is running a "clean" war is, well, "not true" to keep it diplomatic. Edit: re "you are a fool" maybe tone down the personal attacks?

legalcorrection 5y ago
When a military unit operates out of civilian infrastructure, that infrastructure becomes a "clean" target, to use your terminology. That is well-established law of war, accepted by every nation on the planet.
- Forgeties79 5y ago
  Hard disagree, but it doesn't really matter ultimately. I think we just need to be careful sanitizing Russia's tactics.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > When a military unit operates out of civilian infrastructure, that infrastructure becomes a "clean" target We have zero evidence of the military operating out of civilian infrastructure that doesn't come from Russia. We have independent evidence of the Russian military targeting civilian infrastructure which had zero military presence. Hate to have to look at this kind of stuff, but a 61-day old account parroting Putin's propaganda points doesn't look credible per se.
  - dmix 5y ago
    The mall attack that everyone was so shocked about turned out to be housing a Ukranian MLRS which was documented by a Russian drone (obviously there for multiple days given the amount of tire tracks matching the path it took). https://old.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/comments/tje6ez/the_mod_of_the_russia_publishes_a_video_of_a/ https://old.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/comments/tje6... I personally think - technically - that is a fair target in war / urban combat. But it's also incredibly dangerous and reckless to bomb such a huge building in a city. So there's basically no good rational here if the war itself is not justifiable.
  - orangepurple 5y ago
    I have not been following this conflict closely at all, but the concept carries precedent: https://news.yahoo.com/hamas-rockets-found-second-united-nations-school-224830922.html https://news.yahoo.com/hamas-rockets-found-second-united-nat... In that instance (see link) "Israel bombs UN school in Gaza" doesn't sound very nice.

ericmay 5y ago

Yea, and in this case if you don't invade Ukraine you don't have to worry about any of this stuff.

legalcorrection 5y ago
Whether the war was legally initiated or not is totally beside the point of whether the laws of war are observed in its execution. That is why not every Nazi officer was a war criminal, only the ones who committed war crimes, even though they were ultimately carrying out an illegal war of aggression.
- ericmay 5y ago
  It's not beside the point because you cannot separate the two. Operating the war, from the start is an issue. Even attacking Ukrainian military personnel is an issue, let alone civilians. > That is why not every Nazi officer was a war criminal, only the ones who committed war crimes, even though they were ultimately carrying out an illegal war of aggression. Yes. Hopefully we'll be able to hold these Russian officers accountable. Though I think it's unlikely unless they slip up and travel to the wrong country where the United States and allies have enough sway to extradite and bring these criminals to trial.
- nwiswell 5y ago
  You're kind of moving the goalposts here. The original assertion is that our attitudes are shaped by Ukrainian propaganda rather than the reality. Certainly it is a fact that this is an illegal war which has resulted in the deaths of thousands of civilians. Whether those deaths were, uh, "procedurally valid" is not really relevant.
- KoftaBob 5y ago
  ...you're Russian I take it?

jhgb 5y ago

Except Russian soldiers were ordered to kill civilians no matter what, not just attack "civilian structures and human shields".

vogre 5y ago
Do you have any proof of that?
- jhgb 5y ago
  I already posted one testimony above, from a soldier who tried to save some Ukrainians and got shot by his own people for it.
orangepurple 5y ago
What you're proposing is a wasted effort when a neutron bomb would do this far more efficiently.
- jhgb 5y ago
  1) I'm not "proposing" anything. 2) Nobody said that historically, Russians have been perfectly rational. So whatever you think would or would not be appropriate is irrelevant, and in any case recorded facts about events that actually happened trump your feels about those events. 3) Russians may not even be in possession of neutron bombs suitable for ground delivery. The only ones they've had were installed in ABM systems and had a whopping 10 kt yield.
- Forgeties79 5y ago
  >What you're proposing is a wasted effort when a neutron bomb would do this far more efficiently. Please don't spike the conversation.