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How much VR have you tried? After just 10 minutes of Beat Saber I was left with an odd feeling after taking off the headset. I think your standards for VR are u

How much VR have you tried? After just 10 minutes of Beat Saber I was left with an odd feeling after taking off the headset. I think your standards for VR are unreasonably high, considering how utterly addicting it's likely to be to huge numbers of people if it just gets fairly engaging. Put another way, both Roblox and Minecraft look like crap, and are largely graphics we could have replicated on the the Playstation 1 or N64, but Microsoft bought Minecraft for $2.5 billion, and Roblox has a valuation in the tens of billions. The threshold between "there's no killer app" and "yet" is razor thin.

jmyeet 5y ago
I've tried an Oculus Go for maybe 12 hours? Some of it was interesting but it always felt gimmicky to me. A bit like 3D in movie theaters. Like it was all so... forced.
- andybak 5y ago
  The Oculus Go was a 3DOF headset. That's basically a glorified 360 movie viewer. 6DOF is the absolute bare minimum and I feel we should have reserved the term "VR" specifically for 6DOF devices. The immersion just isn't there without positional tracking. And positional tracking with the controllers is another huge factor. So - I would argue you've never really tried "real VR".
  - shadowgovt 5y ago
    People don't realize it, but without positional tracking, even seated experiences feel very "off." Consider where the joint is that moves your head. When you rotate your head, you're not rotating through an axis in the center of your head; you're pivoting a spline describing your neck. That's a very complicated motion and it can't be faked by just turning the view without moving the view also (and if you try to simulate it without full 6DOF tracking, you'll have to model the user's neck length and curvature profile, and that'll get very messy, with disorientation consequences when you get it wrong).
    - andybak 5y ago
      Actually 3dof headsets did try and compensate for this by modelling the human neck. But that still ignores a lot of the range of movement that one makes even when seated and relatively still.
    - ehnto 5y ago
      With that said, head tracking just on it's own adds a new dimension to the experience of a first person game. Sitting in the cockpit of a spaceship and moving around with the mouse feels like a game, but being able to tilt your head around, move it side to side and experience the parallax of all the different elements moving around eachother is astonishing. Even if you're one of the types that can't quite get into VR or wearing the headset, I'd recommend trying out some TrackIR, or for free you can try Opentrack + AI track and just use your standard webcam.
  - krapp 5y ago
    I have a VR headset. What I don't have in my apartment is a lot of empty space, nor do i want to move furniture around to create a play area whenever i want to do something in "real VR." Everyone dismisses 3DOF VR but that is realistically the only form of VR that is widely consumer friendly. If I can't stand or sit more or less in a single place, I'm simply not going to use an app despite having a headset that supports it.
    - andybak 5y ago
      You're conflating "3dof" with seated. I'm similarly space constrained a lot of the time but 6dof is still my bare minimum requirement. Head movements of 1 or 2 cm matter for immersion. It's not about running round a large play space. Seated VR needs to be 6dof as well
      - krapp 5y ago
        Isn't the extra complexity needed for 6dof what makes headsets so expensive? Is it even worth it for 1 or 2cm?
        andybak 5y ago
        > Is it even worth it for 1 or 2cm? Yes. It's worth it. It's such a significant difference that I just have zero interest in 3dof headsets for anything other than 360 video (and I've got very little interest in 360 video) With 3dof, the minute you lean or move your head by a small amount, the whole illusion is shattered and you are reminded that you're just watching a stereoscopic skydome that's glued to your head. It's also why lag and low refresh rates are an immersion killer for 6dof. Plus - even seated experiences allow a lot of mobility. You can lean towards things to examine them closer. You can duck to either side. "Seated" doesn't mean "immobile apart from your head"
- delecti 5y ago
  I wonder if susceptibility to accept VR as more "reality" than "virtual" is something that varies per person. All of the VR I've tried has felt completely unforced. I accepted it all immediately.
tokai 5y ago
>largely graphics we could have replicated on the the Playstation 1 or N64 I know you are making a hyperbole, but that is just absolutely ridiculous.
- delecti 5y ago
  I am being hyperbolic, but not that much. Certainly running the full simulation of either Minecraft or Roblox (not to mention the network bandwidth requirements) is well beyond anything that old, but purely the level of visual detail would barely be out of reach of that generation.
spywaregorilla 5y ago
Everyone loves to bring up beatsaber when discussing the future of VR but beat saber is so carefully designed to avoid its pitfalls. You don't move more than a few feet irl or in game. Everything you need to see is in front of you. You have infinitely light weapons with no resistance. Graphics is not the problem. It's the interface.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  That's how all 80s and 90s games were carefully designed with limited memory/cpu. They designed to avoid those limitations by limiting play or encouraging other actions.
  - spywaregorilla 5y ago
    Memory limits weren't fundamental problems with video games. They were temporary limitations. My point is not that you cannot make fun games in VR. you can, and beat saber is very fun. But you can only have so many beat sabers.
    - mmcgaha 5y ago
      I love beat saber, but I feel like it is VR at the space invaders stage. I think in the next ten years we will see the platformer and beat-um-up stage games; I just don't have the imagination to predict what they will be like.
    - ipaddr 5y ago
      Memory limits are still problems on my c64 but clever people came up with ways around like[geos windows before windows) or There is a guy who appears on here powering his website off a c64. Whatever limits vr creates there are people who can work within those limits. The problem is so fewer developers are making indie vr because it is locked down and expensive.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
    One of the giant limitations for VR is physical playing space. Memory and processor can always get better, faster, and cheaper, but I don't see how available playing space is going to improve in the future.
ekianjo 5y ago
> After just 10 minutes of Beat Saber I was left with an odd feeling after taking off the headset. Beatsaber is like the Tetris of VR. It won't change anything, while it's a good game and it's addictive.
tomc1985 5y ago
The VR folks are starting to sound like the Year of the Linux Desktop folks. Y'all standing at the station for a train that might never come
- moron4hire 5y ago
  The train already came. We're already on it. We're having fun and getting work done. And I'm not even going to say "you missed it". You can get on the train any time you want. It's here and it's pretty cool.
  - tomc1985 5y ago
    With the exception of Half-Life Alyx, everything I've seen on VR has been either a gimmick or "meh" And don't even get me started on how awful virtual workspaces are.
    - oneoff786 5y ago
      Half life alyx is extremely gimmicky if you stop to observe how it works. Enemies are stupidly generous in telegraphing their moves. The game, correctly, expects you to be very slow and unable to integrate moving and shooting. Boneworks is a game that does the opposite, but is similarly disappointing. You get fast walking speed with the analog stick allowing you to be very agile. Presuming you don’t get nausea… this is by far your most useful asset in a fight. The real world movement is basically nothing and a lot of the fighting is better done as a sort of jousting with your weapon held in front of you and your move stick held forward.
    - ehnto 5y ago
      Not liking it is pretty different to it not being here though. I think people expect VR to be something more than it is, but it is just some sensors tracking your body and a screen strapped to your face. That enables some unique experiences, but it's no braindance.
      - tomc1985 5y ago
AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
Beat Saber is the only reason I still have a VR rig and I still feel like I agree with parent. It is a solid rhythm game and decent upper body workout on higher difficulties, but if I hadn't already bought a friend's used Oculus I don't think it would convince me. A big part of it is how damned inconvenient the whole thing is. I need all these long high-quality USB3 cables for the headset and sensors, a beefy video card, and most importantly an otherwise empty room to play it in safely. The Quest, the most convenient system, only kinda deals with the first two problems and does nothing for the third. I don't know about you guys, but I can't just have the servants clear out the tertiary ball room whenever I want to play a game. In the normal sized bedroom I've allocated for VR I have managed to slam into walls on more than one occasion when moving quickly trying to hit something or dodge something. I would definitely say the whole thing is still pretty far into "gimmick" territory for the vast majority of gamers.
- ehnto 5y ago
  There are some "solutions" to the third, but they're all just workarounds to what is a very hard limitation that I don't think we should expect to ever be fixed. I think games just need to design around it. Putting a small mat on the ground gives you a reference to where you are in your room, if need be maybe you just make sure you never stray from the mat. One of the reasons I got an "inside out" style headset is so I don't have to worry about all the cables and base stations, with the tradeoff that the hand tracking isn't quite as robust. Much less faffing about.
- renox 5y ago
  I even managed to slam into a wall in a VR demo, the guy who was my "guardian angel" wasn't paying enough attention.. When you think about all the things which can be on the ground in a typical house..

jmyeet 5y ago

I've tried an Oculus Go for maybe 12 hours? Some of it was interesting but it always felt gimmicky to me. A bit like 3D in movie theaters. Like it was all so... forced.

andybak 5y ago
The Oculus Go was a 3DOF headset. That's basically a glorified 360 movie viewer. 6DOF is the absolute bare minimum and I feel we should have reserved the term "VR" specifically for 6DOF devices. The immersion just isn't there without positional tracking. And positional tracking with the controllers is another huge factor. So - I would argue you've never really tried "real VR".
- shadowgovt 5y ago
  People don't realize it, but without positional tracking, even seated experiences feel very "off." Consider where the joint is that moves your head. When you rotate your head, you're not rotating through an axis in the center of your head; you're pivoting a spline describing your neck. That's a very complicated motion and it can't be faked by just turning the view without moving the view also (and if you try to simulate it without full 6DOF tracking, you'll have to model the user's neck length and curvature profile, and that'll get very messy, with disorientation consequences when you get it wrong).
  - andybak 5y ago
    Actually 3dof headsets did try and compensate for this by modelling the human neck. But that still ignores a lot of the range of movement that one makes even when seated and relatively still.
  - ehnto 5y ago
    With that said, head tracking just on it's own adds a new dimension to the experience of a first person game. Sitting in the cockpit of a spaceship and moving around with the mouse feels like a game, but being able to tilt your head around, move it side to side and experience the parallax of all the different elements moving around eachother is astonishing. Even if you're one of the types that can't quite get into VR or wearing the headset, I'd recommend trying out some TrackIR, or for free you can try Opentrack + AI track and just use your standard webcam.
- krapp 5y ago
  I have a VR headset. What I don't have in my apartment is a lot of empty space, nor do i want to move furniture around to create a play area whenever i want to do something in "real VR." Everyone dismisses 3DOF VR but that is realistically the only form of VR that is widely consumer friendly. If I can't stand or sit more or less in a single place, I'm simply not going to use an app despite having a headset that supports it.
  - andybak 5y ago
    You're conflating "3dof" with seated. I'm similarly space constrained a lot of the time but 6dof is still my bare minimum requirement. Head movements of 1 or 2 cm matter for immersion. It's not about running round a large play space. Seated VR needs to be 6dof as well
    - krapp 5y ago
      Isn't the extra complexity needed for 6dof what makes headsets so expensive? Is it even worth it for 1 or 2cm?
      - andybak 5y ago
        > Is it even worth it for 1 or 2cm? Yes. It's worth it. It's such a significant difference that I just have zero interest in 3dof headsets for anything other than 360 video (and I've got very little interest in 360 video) With 3dof, the minute you lean or move your head by a small amount, the whole illusion is shattered and you are reminded that you're just watching a stereoscopic skydome that's glued to your head. It's also why lag and low refresh rates are an immersion killer for 6dof. Plus - even seated experiences allow a lot of mobility. You can lean towards things to examine them closer. You can duck to either side. "Seated" doesn't mean "immobile apart from your head"
delecti 5y ago
I wonder if susceptibility to accept VR as more "reality" than "virtual" is something that varies per person. All of the VR I've tried has felt completely unforced. I accepted it all immediately.

tokai 5y ago

>largely graphics we could have replicated on the the Playstation 1 or N64 I know you are making a hyperbole, but that is just absolutely ridiculous.

delecti 5y ago
I am being hyperbolic, but not that much. Certainly running the full simulation of either Minecraft or Roblox (not to mention the network bandwidth requirements) is well beyond anything that old, but purely the level of visual detail would barely be out of reach of that generation.

spywaregorilla 5y ago

Everyone loves to bring up beatsaber when discussing the future of VR but beat saber is so carefully designed to avoid its pitfalls. You don't move more than a few feet irl or in game. Everything you need to see is in front of you. You have infinitely light weapons with no resistance. Graphics is not the problem. It's the interface.

ipaddr 5y ago
That's how all 80s and 90s games were carefully designed with limited memory/cpu. They designed to avoid those limitations by limiting play or encouraging other actions.
- spywaregorilla 5y ago
  Memory limits weren't fundamental problems with video games. They were temporary limitations. My point is not that you cannot make fun games in VR. you can, and beat saber is very fun. But you can only have so many beat sabers.
  - mmcgaha 5y ago
    I love beat saber, but I feel like it is VR at the space invaders stage. I think in the next ten years we will see the platformer and beat-um-up stage games; I just don't have the imagination to predict what they will be like.
  - ipaddr 5y ago
    Memory limits are still problems on my c64 but clever people came up with ways around like[geos windows before windows) or There is a guy who appears on here powering his website off a c64. Whatever limits vr creates there are people who can work within those limits. The problem is so fewer developers are making indie vr because it is locked down and expensive.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
  One of the giant limitations for VR is physical playing space. Memory and processor can always get better, faster, and cheaper, but I don't see how available playing space is going to improve in the future.

ekianjo 5y ago

> After just 10 minutes of Beat Saber I was left with an odd feeling after taking off the headset. Beatsaber is like the Tetris of VR. It won't change anything, while it's a good game and it's addictive.

tomc1985 5y ago

The VR folks are starting to sound like the Year of the Linux Desktop folks. Y'all standing at the station for a train that might never come

moron4hire 5y ago
The train already came. We're already on it. We're having fun and getting work done. And I'm not even going to say "you missed it". You can get on the train any time you want. It's here and it's pretty cool.
- tomc1985 5y ago
  With the exception of Half-Life Alyx, everything I've seen on VR has been either a gimmick or "meh" And don't even get me started on how awful virtual workspaces are.
  - oneoff786 5y ago
    Half life alyx is extremely gimmicky if you stop to observe how it works. Enemies are stupidly generous in telegraphing their moves. The game, correctly, expects you to be very slow and unable to integrate moving and shooting. Boneworks is a game that does the opposite, but is similarly disappointing. You get fast walking speed with the analog stick allowing you to be very agile. Presuming you don’t get nausea… this is by far your most useful asset in a fight. The real world movement is basically nothing and a lot of the fighting is better done as a sort of jousting with your weapon held in front of you and your move stick held forward.
  - ehnto 5y ago
    Not liking it is pretty different to it not being here though. I think people expect VR to be something more than it is, but it is just some sensors tracking your body and a screen strapped to your face. That enables some unique experiences, but it's no braindance.
    - tomc1985 5y ago

AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago

Beat Saber is the only reason I still have a VR rig and I still feel like I agree with parent. It is a solid rhythm game and decent upper body workout on higher difficulties, but if I hadn't already bought a friend's used Oculus I don't think it would convince me. A big part of it is how damned inconvenient the whole thing is. I need all these long high-quality USB3 cables for the headset and sensors, a beefy video card, and most importantly an otherwise empty room to play it in safely. The Quest, the most convenient system, only kinda deals with the first two problems and does nothing for the third. I don't know about you guys, but I can't just have the servants clear out the tertiary ball room whenever I want to play a game. In the normal sized bedroom I've allocated for VR I have managed to slam into walls on more than one occasion when moving quickly trying to hit something or dodge something. I would definitely say the whole thing is still pretty far into "gimmick" territory for the vast majority of gamers.

ehnto 5y ago
There are some "solutions" to the third, but they're all just workarounds to what is a very hard limitation that I don't think we should expect to ever be fixed. I think games just need to design around it. Putting a small mat on the ground gives you a reference to where you are in your room, if need be maybe you just make sure you never stray from the mat. One of the reasons I got an "inside out" style headset is so I don't have to worry about all the cables and base stations, with the tradeoff that the hand tracking isn't quite as robust. Much less faffing about.
renox 5y ago
I even managed to slam into a wall in a VR demo, the guy who was my "guardian angel" wasn't paying enough attention.. When you think about all the things which can be on the ground in a typical house..