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Can't you say that the blackhole as a whole maintains a quantum state that accounts for every particle in it? Then, the paradox does not arise in the first plac

Can't you say that the blackhole as a whole maintains a quantum state that accounts for every particle in it? Then, the paradox does not arise in the first place, compared to considering a blackhole as a gravitational singularity only determined by its mass.

wanda 5y ago
If I am not mistaken, I believe the paradox arises not when matter enters the black hole, but rather in the anonymity of its expression as Hawking radiation later in the black hole's lifespan. I was also under the impression that a solution to the paradox had already been discussed, just not conclusively or in detail. The linked article is pretty atrocious.
kryptiskt 5y ago
But if the black hole then evaporates by emitting Hawking radiation, where did the state go when it has disappeared?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
simiones 5y ago
> Can't you say that the blackhole as a whole maintains a quantum state that accounts for every particle in it? No - in current theories of black holes (GR), the strength of gravity (the curvature of space time) at the center of the black hole is such that there is no room for a single particle to exist, everything is condensed into a single mathematical point (well, it's actually a disk I believe, since it must be able to rotate). As such, a black hole is characterized by only three things: mass, charge, and angular momentum. If it has more degrees of freedom, it's not consistent with GR. Now, the clear assumption is that mathematical solutions that involve singularities indicate limits of a theory - that is, that GR breaks down inside a black hole, requiring some other theory of gravity to explain what goes on in there. But QM is not that theory, and there is no theory which encompasses both GR and QM - though there are a few incomplete candidates.
codethief 5y ago
AFAIU this is pretty much what they are saying. The gravitational field of the black hole is not as simple as we thought it would be (i.e. it cannot be fully described by just a few numbers like mass, angular momentum and charge) and it carries information about the original matter that formed the BH. This information then manages to "escape" along with the Hawking radition as the gravitational field influences the emission of said radiation.

wanda 5y ago

If I am not mistaken, I believe the paradox arises not when matter enters the black hole, but rather in the anonymity of its expression as Hawking radiation later in the black hole's lifespan. I was also under the impression that a solution to the paradox had already been discussed, just not conclusively or in detail. The linked article is pretty atrocious.

kryptiskt 5y ago

But if the black hole then evaporates by emitting Hawking radiation, where did the state go when it has disappeared?

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

simiones 5y ago

> Can't you say that the blackhole as a whole maintains a quantum state that accounts for every particle in it? No - in current theories of black holes (GR), the strength of gravity (the curvature of space time) at the center of the black hole is such that there is no room for a single particle to exist, everything is condensed into a single mathematical point (well, it's actually a disk I believe, since it must be able to rotate). As such, a black hole is characterized by only three things: mass, charge, and angular momentum. If it has more degrees of freedom, it's not consistent with GR. Now, the clear assumption is that mathematical solutions that involve singularities indicate limits of a theory - that is, that GR breaks down inside a black hole, requiring some other theory of gravity to explain what goes on in there. But QM is not that theory, and there is no theory which encompasses both GR and QM - though there are a few incomplete candidates.

codethief 5y ago

AFAIU this is pretty much what they are saying. The gravitational field of the black hole is not as simple as we thought it would be (i.e. it cannot be fully described by just a few numbers like mass, angular momentum and charge) and it carries information about the original matter that formed the BH. This information then manages to "escape" along with the Hawking radition as the gravitational field influences the emission of said radiation.