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I hope that you are aware that you are greatly empowering your employer by intricately interleaving your work and concept of life. If your social network, your

I hope that you are aware that you are greatly empowering your employer by intricately interleaving your work and concept of life. If your social network, your personal support network, your community and self are tied to your work; then your employer has tremendous power over you.

deleted 5y ago
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10000truths 5y ago
This is a needlessly adversarial take. An employer that values you will empower you with commensurate compensation.
- kranner 5y ago
  Hardly needless. Employers throw out faithful and dedicated employees all the time, even in ageist industries where it is difficult for them to find another job. I saw this happen to a close friend's father; their financial stability crumbled. He seemed to have aged 10 years overnight. It was quite a few years before I saw him not visibly depressed. Despite being a talented engineer (not in software) he never found an engineering job again.
  - DiggyJohnson 5y ago
    How is this relevant? Presumably the reason we’re discussing bc in this thread for working longer hours isn’t job security, but job satisfaction. I don’t see how this connects, frankly.
    - kranner 5y ago
      I was responding to a comment that spoke about employers who value employees as if this is always clear to employees, or even true in the long run.
  - 10000truths 5y ago
    In an employer throws you out, then they ostensibly don’t value you enough to keep paying you.
- _ZeD_ 5y ago
  hahahahah this is good!
- kevinventullo 5y ago
  They absolutely will not. They will pay you the minimum amount they can to keep you around which, if you love your work so much you’d do it for fun, isn’t a lot.
- onion2k 5y ago
  An employer that values you will empower you with commensurate compensation. If someone on my team chose to work 80 hours a week because they loved what they do then I would actively discourage them, and remove them from the team if they continued. Having someone like that around has several negative impacts; - It makes other people resentful of the fact they have to work longer hours, or change their schedules, to keep up with features or testing. That leads to more staff churn. - It's harder to have discussions about the work being done when someone is working outside of office hours, which leads to things being done as one person sees fit, or needing to be reworked often. That annoys other people on the team. - Other people on the team who choose not to work more than their contracted hours would be very annoyed if they saw hours as a factor in compensation, leading to more staff churn. - In a small business that charges for time in days, someone working 16 hours a day is essentially giving the customer work for free. If you charge for 2 days work, and tell the client you're doing 2 days work, but only work 1 day, that's dancing around the edges of potential fraud. A client could very reasonably argue that if you did the work in 1 day they should only pay for 1 day... I would much rather have a good team of people working well together than have one hero doing most of the work.
  - 10000truths 5y ago
    > If someone on my team chose to work 80 hours a week because they loved what they do then I would actively discourage them, and remove them from the team if they continued. So you don’t value this behavior - you view it as a liability to your team, for the reasons you outlined. None of what you have stated contradicts my point.
  - Terry_Roll 5y ago
    > - It makes other people resentful of the fact they have to work longer hours, or change their schedules, to keep up with features or testing. That leads to more staff churn. It shouldnt do though, your team should be able to work any number of hours and still be productive because things like illness, pregnancy, deaths, holidays occur and they are not always expected or planned. > - It's harder to have discussions about the work being done when someone is working outside of office hours, which leads to things being done as one person sees fit, or needing to be reworked often. That annoys other people on the team. Depends on the role the person is doing, a good team will be able to cater for those who do more hours, just view that person as like two people working then you can see your team is incapable of working with two people performing a task/job. > Other people on the team who choose not to work more than their contracted hours would be very annoyed if they saw hours as a factor in compensation, leading to more staff churn. Seems like a rehash of point 1 and that shouldnt matter. >- In a small business that charges for time in days, someone working 16 hours a day is essentially giving the customer work for free. If you charge for 2 days work, and tell the client you're doing 2 days work, but only work 1 day, that's dancing around the edges of potential fraud. A client could very reasonably argue that if you did the work in 1 day they should only pay for 1 day... Then you have a contract issue which is not handling your charges properly. Flip this around, what if you got super busy and had to do 16hrs a day to complete the job more quickly to get onto another project/source of income, would you still work 8hrs because you contract charges are wrong? > I would much rather have a good team of people working well together than have one hero doing most of the work. I sense you despise individualism which might explain why so many people go work for themselves.
- Arainach 5y ago
  Name one case where this has been true. It's not the case at any business, even ones with the lavish funds to do so. Just about everywhere, new hires will be making more than tenured employees of comparable level regardless of their expertise and proven value.
msla 5y ago
Two people can have political disagreements without one of them being ignorant.
- hypertele-Xii 5y ago
  In principle if two people disagree politically, they are both ignorant. If they were enlightened, they'd agree on a common policy.
  - msla 5y ago
    People can disagree on which values they want to emphasize without either of them being ignorant.
TameAntelope 5y ago
Yes, they benefit substantially from my work, and I benefit substantially from doing work I love. Win-win. Not sure what's wrong with that. Besides, I don't just trust anyone, the people I work for now have earned that trust over time; I want to see them succeed, because I succeed when they do, and vice versa. They are capable of causing me harm due to that trust, yes, but that's what opening yourself up is. If that happens, it will hurt, I will recover, and I will find a new way to mesh what I love with what I make money doing. It would suck, but I would survive it.
DiggyJohnson 5y ago
You would have him subvert his motivation away the source of his contentment for something as abstract as benefiting the quality of the network of relationships? Quite literally arguing against the individual in support of a network: hivemind. It seems like you’re forgetting you’re talking to an individual.
- alecbz 5y ago
  I’m for people working a lot if they want to and it makes them happy, but humans are inherently social beings and community is incredibly important to our mental health. OP (of this thread) even says part of what they enjoy is working with others who similarly value their work. It doesn’t make sense to wave away social needs as some trivial or “abstract” concern.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

10000truths 5y ago

This is a needlessly adversarial take. An employer that values you will empower you with commensurate compensation.

kranner 5y ago
Hardly needless. Employers throw out faithful and dedicated employees all the time, even in ageist industries where it is difficult for them to find another job. I saw this happen to a close friend's father; their financial stability crumbled. He seemed to have aged 10 years overnight. It was quite a few years before I saw him not visibly depressed. Despite being a talented engineer (not in software) he never found an engineering job again.
- DiggyJohnson 5y ago
  How is this relevant? Presumably the reason we’re discussing bc in this thread for working longer hours isn’t job security, but job satisfaction. I don’t see how this connects, frankly.
  - kranner 5y ago
    I was responding to a comment that spoke about employers who value employees as if this is always clear to employees, or even true in the long run.
- 10000truths 5y ago
  In an employer throws you out, then they ostensibly don’t value you enough to keep paying you.
_ZeD_ 5y ago
hahahahah this is good!
kevinventullo 5y ago
They absolutely will not. They will pay you the minimum amount they can to keep you around which, if you love your work so much you’d do it for fun, isn’t a lot.
onion2k 5y ago
An employer that values you will empower you with commensurate compensation. If someone on my team chose to work 80 hours a week because they loved what they do then I would actively discourage them, and remove them from the team if they continued. Having someone like that around has several negative impacts; - It makes other people resentful of the fact they have to work longer hours, or change their schedules, to keep up with features or testing. That leads to more staff churn. - It's harder to have discussions about the work being done when someone is working outside of office hours, which leads to things being done as one person sees fit, or needing to be reworked often. That annoys other people on the team. - Other people on the team who choose not to work more than their contracted hours would be very annoyed if they saw hours as a factor in compensation, leading to more staff churn. - In a small business that charges for time in days, someone working 16 hours a day is essentially giving the customer work for free. If you charge for 2 days work, and tell the client you're doing 2 days work, but only work 1 day, that's dancing around the edges of potential fraud. A client could very reasonably argue that if you did the work in 1 day they should only pay for 1 day... I would much rather have a good team of people working well together than have one hero doing most of the work.
- 10000truths 5y ago
  > If someone on my team chose to work 80 hours a week because they loved what they do then I would actively discourage them, and remove them from the team if they continued. So you don’t value this behavior - you view it as a liability to your team, for the reasons you outlined. None of what you have stated contradicts my point.
- Terry_Roll 5y ago
  > - It makes other people resentful of the fact they have to work longer hours, or change their schedules, to keep up with features or testing. That leads to more staff churn. It shouldnt do though, your team should be able to work any number of hours and still be productive because things like illness, pregnancy, deaths, holidays occur and they are not always expected or planned. > - It's harder to have discussions about the work being done when someone is working outside of office hours, which leads to things being done as one person sees fit, or needing to be reworked often. That annoys other people on the team. Depends on the role the person is doing, a good team will be able to cater for those who do more hours, just view that person as like two people working then you can see your team is incapable of working with two people performing a task/job. > Other people on the team who choose not to work more than their contracted hours would be very annoyed if they saw hours as a factor in compensation, leading to more staff churn. Seems like a rehash of point 1 and that shouldnt matter. >- In a small business that charges for time in days, someone working 16 hours a day is essentially giving the customer work for free. If you charge for 2 days work, and tell the client you're doing 2 days work, but only work 1 day, that's dancing around the edges of potential fraud. A client could very reasonably argue that if you did the work in 1 day they should only pay for 1 day... Then you have a contract issue which is not handling your charges properly. Flip this around, what if you got super busy and had to do 16hrs a day to complete the job more quickly to get onto another project/source of income, would you still work 8hrs because you contract charges are wrong? > I would much rather have a good team of people working well together than have one hero doing most of the work. I sense you despise individualism which might explain why so many people go work for themselves.
Arainach 5y ago
Name one case where this has been true. It's not the case at any business, even ones with the lavish funds to do so. Just about everywhere, new hires will be making more than tenured employees of comparable level regardless of their expertise and proven value.

msla 5y ago

Two people can have political disagreements without one of them being ignorant.

hypertele-Xii 5y ago
In principle if two people disagree politically, they are both ignorant. If they were enlightened, they'd agree on a common policy.
- msla 5y ago
  People can disagree on which values they want to emphasize without either of them being ignorant.

TameAntelope 5y ago

Yes, they benefit substantially from my work, and I benefit substantially from doing work I love. Win-win. Not sure what's wrong with that. Besides, I don't just trust anyone, the people I work for now have earned that trust over time; I want to see them succeed, because I succeed when they do, and vice versa. They are capable of causing me harm due to that trust, yes, but that's what opening yourself up is. If that happens, it will hurt, I will recover, and I will find a new way to mesh what I love with what I make money doing. It would suck, but I would survive it.

DiggyJohnson 5y ago

You would have him subvert his motivation away the source of his contentment for something as abstract as benefiting the quality of the network of relationships? Quite literally arguing against the individual in support of a network: hivemind. It seems like you’re forgetting you’re talking to an individual.

alecbz 5y ago
I’m for people working a lot if they want to and it makes them happy, but humans are inherently social beings and community is incredibly important to our mental health. OP (of this thread) even says part of what they enjoy is working with others who similarly value their work. It doesn’t make sense to wave away social needs as some trivial or “abstract” concern.