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I'll give you an actual contrarian take on working long hours: I like it, and I'm really tired of people commenting on what hours I keep. I enjoy my work. It'

I'll give you an actual contrarian take on working long hours: I like it, and I'm really tired of people commenting on what hours I keep. I enjoy my work. It's what I'd be doing in my spare time if I didn't need or have this job. I've thought about this, and I think I'd stick around at my role even if I hit a windfall, because I want to see this through to the end, one way or another. Sometimes, in order to do the kind of job I would be proud of, I need to work very long hours. That's 100% fine with me, but it's not always been fine with some other people I work with. I'll even go one step further; I like working with others who share this view on working. I know not everyone can do as I do, and not everyone wants to do as I do, but when I'm working with people who can and want to work long hours, I am substantially more satisfied at my job than when I work with 9-5ers. I don't in any way begrudge those 9-5ers, I just would rather work with people who share my ability and desire to push as far as is needed to complete the work to a high standard that is usually not possible in 40 hours a week. It just seems like I have to constantly kowtow to the 9-5ers because they get so bent out of shape when you suggest that their style of working is only one of many totally acceptable ways of living. "Work life balance!" they shout, but not all of us have bifurcated the concepts. Work and life don't have to be these entirely severed things, I much prefer to weave them together and work with other people who can weave them together successfully. It's frustrating. There's some sort of moral nobility in "only" working 40 hours, like I'm the problem and they're just trying to live their lives. I don't mind! I just want to work with people who value the things I do.

laserlight 5y ago
> I want to see this through to the end, one way or another. Would you be OK if you were terminated for an unjust reason? If so, that's great. If not, that might mean you have other expectations than just working on the problem. I would reconsider my strategy in that case.
brtkdotse 5y ago
Good for you, I in no small way envy your dedication to your work (despite choosing to work 30 hour weeks myself). Would you say the reward is commensurate for your effort?
rconti 5y ago
I'm not necessarily on your side, but I expected the "contrarian" take in this blogpost to be "actually, I think long hours are great!", not "maybe long hours aren't great!"
- grok22 5y ago
  Me too! I was thinking it was going to be a paean to the joys of working long and hard!
ericmcer 5y ago
I don’t have a moral issue with it in isolation but it does “throw off the curve” in a system where we are all valued relative to our peers. A student who asks for more homework because he likes it is great, but he is going to draw a lot of ire from his peers.
dleslie 5y ago
I hope that you are aware that you are greatly empowering your employer by intricately interleaving your work and concept of life. If your social network, your personal support network, your community and self are tied to your work; then your employer has tremendous power over you.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- 10000truths 5y ago
  This is a needlessly adversarial take. An employer that values you will empower you with commensurate compensation.
  - kranner 5y ago
    Hardly needless. Employers throw out faithful and dedicated employees all the time, even in ageist industries where it is difficult for them to find another job. I saw this happen to a close friend's father; their financial stability crumbled. He seemed to have aged 10 years overnight. It was quite a few years before I saw him not visibly depressed. Despite being a talented engineer (not in software) he never found an engineering job again.
    - DiggyJohnson 5y ago
      How is this relevant? Presumably the reason we’re discussing bc in this thread for working longer hours isn’t job security, but job satisfaction. I don’t see how this connects, frankly.
      - kranner 5y ago
        I was responding to a comment that spoke about employers who value employees as if this is always clear to employees, or even true in the long run.
    - 10000truths 5y ago
throwaway675309 5y ago
Sure if you can theoretically weave life and work together that's great I suppose , but for some of us that would be exceptionally difficult given our interests and priorities. I can't interweave my ability to sit down and play guitar and piano, swim, go on hour long hikes with my dog, juggle, study Chinese, and write dnd campaigns. These activities are not conducive to your "blended style of work/life". additionally it's all about compensation as well if everyone was working overtime then it sort of normalizes it. As frustrating as you find it, I find it completely baffling that people have such single minded interests that they would choose to pursue just one thing more than 40 hours a week.
dQw4w9WgXcQ 5y ago
The fact that you're posting some giant message about how much you work means it's unlikely you are truly working as many hours as you think. Use a tomato timer and hit the "Start" button every time you're truly doing work and "Stop" button when you're not. Bathroom breaks, employee chats, heating up lunches, break walks, posting on HN, etc... All that shit doesn't count. Get back to us with the #s after you've done a sustained run for a month.
- TameAntelope 5y ago
  I completed 32 pomodoros last week, which is above my average of ~25 for the past year and change, and a lot of my job isn't focused work, and none of that pomodoro time included any of the project management, meetings, or conversations I had with the team to figure out what we're up to, what the problems are, and what we're doing next. But that's not the point. The point is the 9-5ers have held the higher moral ground for years now, and I'm tired of having to apologize or justify my preference for longer work hours because it makes them feel bad. There's nothing wrong with what their work/life balance is, but there's also nothing wrong with what my work/life balance is. Honestly it's not that bad if you work weekends. You still have plenty of time to do other things, you just can't get as into your hobbies as you might like. I had to quit my WoW raiding team to devote more time to this job, for example. I don't think anyone would argue my decision there was a huge loss, and honestly the ~15 hours a week I was dedicating to WoW is much better spent on work and work related things. I'm definitely procrastinating right now by typing all this out, so this time doesn't "count", but it's usually during my 5 min breaks between 25 min sessions, so I don't consider it lost time.
  - laserlight 5y ago
    Is 32 pomodoros equal to 32*25 = 800 minutes (13h 20m)?
    - tonyedgecombe 5y ago
      Something doesn't add up with their comments does it.
clpm4j 5y ago
What type of work do you do?
- TameAntelope 5y ago
  I wear lots of hats right now; I was employee #1 so I did whatever engineering needed doing to get our platform created and functioning. Frontend, ops, backend, selecting vendors, eventually hiring, working on compliance, helping define strategy, project management... basically anything that needs technical expertise I'm leading. ...and I'm loving every minute of it. I committed to seeing this through at least until they don't need me anymore, and I fully intend on meeting that obligation, and possibly well beyond that if the work continues to be fun.
  - listenallyall 5y ago
    It seems pretty obvious that you work at a very small company with little or no layers of management, and most likely, without any other typical constraints that most workers deal with -- like fixed hours, an inconvenient office or commute, lots of unproductive meetings, limited amount of annual PTO, lack of knowledge/understanding whether anything you do has actual impact at the company, etc. Putting in 70-80 hours week after week in a scenario like that where it's very clear you're simply an employee is pretty crazy. But for a passion project, where it's just you and a few close friends/coworkers, sure, go for it. Hell, for about 3-4 months during Covid I was easily putting in 90+ hours on a project I loved working on. It's not really as heroic as you're making it out to be.
    - TameAntelope 5y ago
      Not sure why you think I believe it to be heroic, I just think I shouldn't be shamed for spending my time how I want to. You'll note how the shame is being attempted in this very comment thread. It makes me sad. :(
      - majewsky 5y ago
        I think "shame" is a needlessly inciteful description. The main issue is that, in a company with multiple employees, your behavior is not happening in isolation. When one person is working 80 hours a week, it is very common for management to see everyone who chooses to structure their time differently (e.g. because they have kids or elderly relatives to care for) as a slacker. If it turns out that management is not thinking this way in your company, then great! But I think most people commenting skeptically here are familiar with situations where one over-achiever in the team sets an impossibly high standard for everyone else and thus unwittingly causes them harm. This is also why it is usually not considered a problem when a person pursuing their individual passion project puts in crazy hours. If you work for yourself, you're not setting standards for anyone else.
HWR_14 5y ago
The simple solution - work two jobs. I don't care if you work 80 hours a week. I don't think it's healthy or sustainable, but maybe it is for you. And I certainly don't think your fatigued work it's as beneficial as putting in a good 40 hours. But feel free. There is no reason it has to be the same job. Make two sets of 9-5ers happy. Meanwhile, if you set a standard that makes people expect your coworkers to work 60 hours a week, expect them not to like that.
- TameAntelope 5y ago
  Simpler solution: work with people who share my values. This isn't theoretical. I'm currently doing it, and it's immensely fun!
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    Out of curiosity, I wonder about two personal questions. How old are you and how are you compensated for the extra hours? I'm not sure you're willing to share, but if you're working 60 hours you should have equity or extra pay.
    - TameAntelope 5y ago
      I have equity, yes, and I'm not comfortable talking about my age but I will say my wife works harder than I do and we don't have any children.
      - djrobstep 5y ago
        You’re not comfortable talking about your age? Why not? Can you just give a broad range?
        HWR_14 5y ago
        He's not comfortable divulging that. Let it go. I understood and expected he may not want to share either of the things he expected. Declining information about yourself online is reasonable and requires no further explain action. I mainly was curious if he was young enough he was burning himself out and the burn out hadn't caught up to him.
rgavuliak 5y ago
It's weird, but I think you are right. For context, I worked like you for most of my career and only recently joined a scale up that has very strong work life balance. It feels like the people don't care and I am demotivated. When my tech lead told me that if he'd be expected to work overtime he'd quit (he's great otherwise). I kept telling myself it's good for me because I have a baby now, but the truth is I found another job to do over evenings and I feel less and less motivated at my day job. When you say that you enjoy working with people that are not 9-5, it resonates strongly.
r00tanon 5y ago
Enjoy it while you can. Realize though that being "employee #1" and wearing all the hats while working with others that "share your values" means they probably think they themselves are "employee #1" and wearing all the hats, which obviously can't be the case in a well functioning team. I'd hate to see how that works in a large project - like SpaceX where teams have to build things. IOW, consider you may be better off running your own show while you have this drive. And realize you'll want to hire the best and brightest regardless of their WLB preferences. Currently it sounds like all the effort you are spending is in service to someone else's vision, and it better have equity involvement on your part because you WILL get interested in other things and unless you've built a war chest for your own ambitions, your work will be for nothing when you inevitably walk away - hopefully to do you own thing. Don't make the mistake that your employer has your long-term interest in mind. It's not personal, it's just business. It's always what have you done for me lately
- otoburb 5y ago
  >>I'd hate to see how that works in a large project - like SpaceX where teams have to build things. I'm not sure using SpaceX is the best example here given that they were (still are?) notorious for their grueling work hours [1][2]. If anonymous social media posts and Glassdoor reviews are at least a rough proxy, it seems that the hours are still long but trending down from 80-100hrs per week to something "more sane" like 50-60hrs per week [3]. [1] https://www.vice.com/en/article/9a39av/a-spacex-employee-just-filed-a-class-action-lawsuit-for-unpaid-overtime https://www.vice.com/en/article/9a39av/a-spacex-employee-jus... [2] https://www.vice.com/en/article/mgbnwp/the-odd-empathy-of-elon-musk https://www.vice.com/en/article/mgbnwp/the-odd-empathy-of-el... [3] https://www.reddit.com/r/AerospaceEngineering/comments/oho00h/so_how_actually_is_working_at_spacex/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AerospaceEngineering/comments/oho00... [4] https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/SpaceX-long-hours-Reviews-EI_IE40371.0,6_KH7,17.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/SpaceX-long-hours-Reviews-...
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
sheepybloke 5y ago
I agree with you, and based on how adversarial the comments are on this comment, I think you have the real "contrarian take on working long hours."
_moof 5y ago
Mark my words: in a matter of years, you're going to be a husk. Ask me how I know.
justin_oaks 5y ago
Many of us "only" work 40 hours at our paid employment, but do loads more hours for our other jobs: - Maintaining our relationship with our spouse - Caring for our children - Contributing in our community (neighborhood, friends, church, hobby group, open source project, etc.) --- Those coworkers who get bent out of shape are probably concerned that you're raising the employer's expectations of their employees. They may also be concerned about you personally. Your coworkers may feel that putting so much time into your employment is unhealthy for you, even if you don't realize it. From their point of view, they can't understand how you can work like that and be healthy and happy. To you that may feel annoying and judgmental, but it comes from a place of concern and care.
kingboss 5y ago
It's the other way around. You think there is "nobility" in working more than 40 hours a week. There isn't. Stop pretending.

laserlight 5y ago

> I want to see this through to the end, one way or another. Would you be OK if you were terminated for an unjust reason? If so, that's great. If not, that might mean you have other expectations than just working on the problem. I would reconsider my strategy in that case.

brtkdotse 5y ago

Good for you, I in no small way envy your dedication to your work (despite choosing to work 30 hour weeks myself). Would you say the reward is commensurate for your effort?

rconti 5y ago

I'm not necessarily on your side, but I expected the "contrarian" take in this blogpost to be "actually, I think long hours are great!", not "maybe long hours aren't great!"

grok22 5y ago
Me too! I was thinking it was going to be a paean to the joys of working long and hard!

ericmcer 5y ago

I don’t have a moral issue with it in isolation but it does “throw off the curve” in a system where we are all valued relative to our peers. A student who asks for more homework because he likes it is great, but he is going to draw a lot of ire from his peers.

dleslie 5y ago

I hope that you are aware that you are greatly empowering your employer by intricately interleaving your work and concept of life. If your social network, your personal support network, your community and self are tied to your work; then your employer has tremendous power over you.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
10000truths 5y ago
This is a needlessly adversarial take. An employer that values you will empower you with commensurate compensation.
- kranner 5y ago
  Hardly needless. Employers throw out faithful and dedicated employees all the time, even in ageist industries where it is difficult for them to find another job. I saw this happen to a close friend's father; their financial stability crumbled. He seemed to have aged 10 years overnight. It was quite a few years before I saw him not visibly depressed. Despite being a talented engineer (not in software) he never found an engineering job again.
  - DiggyJohnson 5y ago
    How is this relevant? Presumably the reason we’re discussing bc in this thread for working longer hours isn’t job security, but job satisfaction. I don’t see how this connects, frankly.
    - kranner 5y ago
      I was responding to a comment that spoke about employers who value employees as if this is always clear to employees, or even true in the long run.
  - 10000truths 5y ago

throwaway675309 5y ago

Sure if you can theoretically weave life and work together that's great I suppose , but for some of us that would be exceptionally difficult given our interests and priorities. I can't interweave my ability to sit down and play guitar and piano, swim, go on hour long hikes with my dog, juggle, study Chinese, and write dnd campaigns. These activities are not conducive to your "blended style of work/life". additionally it's all about compensation as well if everyone was working overtime then it sort of normalizes it. As frustrating as you find it, I find it completely baffling that people have such single minded interests that they would choose to pursue just one thing more than 40 hours a week.

dQw4w9WgXcQ 5y ago

The fact that you're posting some giant message about how much you work means it's unlikely you are truly working as many hours as you think. Use a tomato timer and hit the "Start" button every time you're truly doing work and "Stop" button when you're not. Bathroom breaks, employee chats, heating up lunches, break walks, posting on HN, etc... All that shit doesn't count. Get back to us with the #s after you've done a sustained run for a month.

TameAntelope 5y ago
I completed 32 pomodoros last week, which is above my average of ~25 for the past year and change, and a lot of my job isn't focused work, and none of that pomodoro time included any of the project management, meetings, or conversations I had with the team to figure out what we're up to, what the problems are, and what we're doing next. But that's not the point. The point is the 9-5ers have held the higher moral ground for years now, and I'm tired of having to apologize or justify my preference for longer work hours because it makes them feel bad. There's nothing wrong with what their work/life balance is, but there's also nothing wrong with what my work/life balance is. Honestly it's not that bad if you work weekends. You still have plenty of time to do other things, you just can't get as into your hobbies as you might like. I had to quit my WoW raiding team to devote more time to this job, for example. I don't think anyone would argue my decision there was a huge loss, and honestly the ~15 hours a week I was dedicating to WoW is much better spent on work and work related things. I'm definitely procrastinating right now by typing all this out, so this time doesn't "count", but it's usually during my 5 min breaks between 25 min sessions, so I don't consider it lost time.
- laserlight 5y ago
  Is 32 pomodoros equal to 32*25 = 800 minutes (13h 20m)?
  - tonyedgecombe 5y ago
    Something doesn't add up with their comments does it.

clpm4j 5y ago

What type of work do you do?

TameAntelope 5y ago
I wear lots of hats right now; I was employee #1 so I did whatever engineering needed doing to get our platform created and functioning. Frontend, ops, backend, selecting vendors, eventually hiring, working on compliance, helping define strategy, project management... basically anything that needs technical expertise I'm leading. ...and I'm loving every minute of it. I committed to seeing this through at least until they don't need me anymore, and I fully intend on meeting that obligation, and possibly well beyond that if the work continues to be fun.
- listenallyall 5y ago
  It seems pretty obvious that you work at a very small company with little or no layers of management, and most likely, without any other typical constraints that most workers deal with -- like fixed hours, an inconvenient office or commute, lots of unproductive meetings, limited amount of annual PTO, lack of knowledge/understanding whether anything you do has actual impact at the company, etc. Putting in 70-80 hours week after week in a scenario like that where it's very clear you're simply an employee is pretty crazy. But for a passion project, where it's just you and a few close friends/coworkers, sure, go for it. Hell, for about 3-4 months during Covid I was easily putting in 90+ hours on a project I loved working on. It's not really as heroic as you're making it out to be.
  - TameAntelope 5y ago
    Not sure why you think I believe it to be heroic, I just think I shouldn't be shamed for spending my time how I want to. You'll note how the shame is being attempted in this very comment thread. It makes me sad. :(
    - majewsky 5y ago
      I think "shame" is a needlessly inciteful description. The main issue is that, in a company with multiple employees, your behavior is not happening in isolation. When one person is working 80 hours a week, it is very common for management to see everyone who chooses to structure their time differently (e.g. because they have kids or elderly relatives to care for) as a slacker. If it turns out that management is not thinking this way in your company, then great! But I think most people commenting skeptically here are familiar with situations where one over-achiever in the team sets an impossibly high standard for everyone else and thus unwittingly causes them harm. This is also why it is usually not considered a problem when a person pursuing their individual passion project puts in crazy hours. If you work for yourself, you're not setting standards for anyone else.

HWR_14 5y ago

The simple solution - work two jobs. I don't care if you work 80 hours a week. I don't think it's healthy or sustainable, but maybe it is for you. And I certainly don't think your fatigued work it's as beneficial as putting in a good 40 hours. But feel free. There is no reason it has to be the same job. Make two sets of 9-5ers happy. Meanwhile, if you set a standard that makes people expect your coworkers to work 60 hours a week, expect them not to like that.

TameAntelope 5y ago
Simpler solution: work with people who share my values. This isn't theoretical. I'm currently doing it, and it's immensely fun!
- HWR_14 5y ago
  Out of curiosity, I wonder about two personal questions. How old are you and how are you compensated for the extra hours? I'm not sure you're willing to share, but if you're working 60 hours you should have equity or extra pay.
  - TameAntelope 5y ago
    I have equity, yes, and I'm not comfortable talking about my age but I will say my wife works harder than I do and we don't have any children.
    - djrobstep 5y ago
      You’re not comfortable talking about your age? Why not? Can you just give a broad range?
      - HWR_14 5y ago
        He's not comfortable divulging that. Let it go. I understood and expected he may not want to share either of the things he expected. Declining information about yourself online is reasonable and requires no further explain action. I mainly was curious if he was young enough he was burning himself out and the burn out hadn't caught up to him.

rgavuliak 5y ago

It's weird, but I think you are right. For context, I worked like you for most of my career and only recently joined a scale up that has very strong work life balance. It feels like the people don't care and I am demotivated. When my tech lead told me that if he'd be expected to work overtime he'd quit (he's great otherwise). I kept telling myself it's good for me because I have a baby now, but the truth is I found another job to do over evenings and I feel less and less motivated at my day job. When you say that you enjoy working with people that are not 9-5, it resonates strongly.

r00tanon 5y ago

Enjoy it while you can. Realize though that being "employee #1" and wearing all the hats while working with others that "share your values" means they probably think they themselves are "employee #1" and wearing all the hats, which obviously can't be the case in a well functioning team. I'd hate to see how that works in a large project - like SpaceX where teams have to build things. IOW, consider you may be better off running your own show while you have this drive. And realize you'll want to hire the best and brightest regardless of their WLB preferences. Currently it sounds like all the effort you are spending is in service to someone else's vision, and it better have equity involvement on your part because you WILL get interested in other things and unless you've built a war chest for your own ambitions, your work will be for nothing when you inevitably walk away - hopefully to do you own thing. Don't make the mistake that your employer has your long-term interest in mind. It's not personal, it's just business. It's always what have you done for me lately

otoburb 5y ago
>>I'd hate to see how that works in a large project - like SpaceX where teams have to build things. I'm not sure using SpaceX is the best example here given that they were (still are?) notorious for their grueling work hours [1][2]. If anonymous social media posts and Glassdoor reviews are at least a rough proxy, it seems that the hours are still long but trending down from 80-100hrs per week to something "more sane" like 50-60hrs per week [3]. [1] https://www.vice.com/en/article/9a39av/a-spacex-employee-just-filed-a-class-action-lawsuit-for-unpaid-overtime https://www.vice.com/en/article/9a39av/a-spacex-employee-jus... [2] https://www.vice.com/en/article/mgbnwp/the-odd-empathy-of-elon-musk https://www.vice.com/en/article/mgbnwp/the-odd-empathy-of-el... [3] https://www.reddit.com/r/AerospaceEngineering/comments/oho00h/so_how_actually_is_working_at_spacex/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AerospaceEngineering/comments/oho00... [4] https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/SpaceX-long-hours-Reviews-EI_IE40371.0,6_KH7,17.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/SpaceX-long-hours-Reviews-...

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

sheepybloke 5y ago

I agree with you, and based on how adversarial the comments are on this comment, I think you have the real "contrarian take on working long hours."

_moof 5y ago

Mark my words: in a matter of years, you're going to be a husk. Ask me how I know.

justin_oaks 5y ago

Many of us "only" work 40 hours at our paid employment, but do loads more hours for our other jobs: - Maintaining our relationship with our spouse - Caring for our children - Contributing in our community (neighborhood, friends, church, hobby group, open source project, etc.) --- Those coworkers who get bent out of shape are probably concerned that you're raising the employer's expectations of their employees. They may also be concerned about you personally. Your coworkers may feel that putting so much time into your employment is unhealthy for you, even if you don't realize it. From their point of view, they can't understand how you can work like that and be healthy and happy. To you that may feel annoying and judgmental, but it comes from a place of concern and care.

kingboss 5y ago

It's the other way around. You think there is "nobility" in working more than 40 hours a week. There isn't. Stop pretending.