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Not a console player, can someone explain why consumers want to downgrade their console(s)? I Googled a bit and it seems people would like to have more vulnerab

Not a console player, can someone explain why consumers want to downgrade their console(s)? I Googled a bit and it seems people would like to have more vulnerable to hack their devices, but why did they upgrade in the first place? Is it forced upgrade?

gfxgirl 5y ago
I upgrade because the new game I want to play won't play if I don't. Also the on console store will refuse to work.
justapassenger 5y ago
You don’t control initial version you get when you buy it (either new or second handed). Often you also first use stock before you learn about/want to start hacking it.
- hnthrowaway0315 5y ago
  Thanks, yeah with hardware there is a lot of complexity. I guess if someone owns a Switch with original firmware, it might be sold with a premium?
  - ajmurmann 5y ago
    Don't know about Switch, but I recently sold a PS4 Pro on eBay and I got a ton of requests to please at the firmware version because they wanted a particular old version that can be rooted
naikrovek 5y ago
Nearly forced. once the console downloads the update, it will be applied automatically upon reboot. The alternative is to never connect to WiFi, ever, and some do that. Generally, consumers would want to downgrade because older versions have vulnerabilities that are fixed in newer versions. these vulnerabilities allow console owners to do what they want with their hardware, and gaming communities have shown Nintendo time and time again that if it is possible to use game hardware for game piracy, it will be widely used for that purpose. Those of us who want a neat standardized hardware platform to hack on without pirating anything are in the noise floor for companies like Nintendo, so we have no representation among neither pirates nor the console manufacturer.
- hnthrowaway0315 5y ago
  Ah I see, thanks. Looks like Nintendo is pretty serious about this (by suing a lot of hobbyists and blowing fuses like this).
  - Mindwipe 5y ago
    Efuses are not uncommon nowadays. Most TVs have efuses to stop software rollback.
    - MonaroVXR 5y ago
      What? Completely new to me, but is expected.
- bredren 5y ago
  The Amazon kindle os does not allow downgrades, not sure if it’s using fuses or not. In that case it isn’t about access to pirated content either—people want to be able to modify it for basic features the company has neglected to provide.
- mccorrinall 5y ago
  Switch does not forcefully upgrade on reboot, but you might be required to have at least firmware version x to run game y.
  - hnthrowaway0315 5y ago
    I Googled a bit more and found the history of Nintendo v.s. fans is fascinating...
    - imglorp 5y ago
      Fans? Sounds more like victims of Stockholm Syndrome.
      - 5y ago
mch82 5y ago
> why did they upgrade in the first place? New games and game updates often require Switch system updates. Two examples: Animal Crossing DLC requires a system update. Rocket League seasons usually require a game update.
- hnthrowaway0315 5y ago
  Thanks, yeah this is pretty much forced upgrade, either upgrade and play, or don't play at all.
  - goosedragons 5y ago
    You can still play if you don't upgrade. You only run into an issue with new titles that require a higher firmware. But considering new firmwares can add new features like the ability to boost the CPU clock during loading you also can't reasonably expect them to ensure every game works on every firmware. If you already have a game and it runs today on the current firmware you can at least keep playing it offline by just skipping the system or game update.
heftig 5y ago
Games on cards have a minimum firmware version. The firmware won't let you launch them without updating first.
- hnthrowaway0315 5y ago
  Thanks, yeah this is pretty much forced play. I guess it is also possible (technically) to modify the code of the game to remove the firmware requirement, if it is just a version check?
  - zorgmonkey 5y ago
    They're doing some cryptographic operations to prevent modified games from being loaded (probably a signature, but I'm not 100% sure). One of the uses for a rooted switch (or any other console I suppose) other than piracy is to play modded games. You can find youtube videos of people doing all sorts of crazy challenges in popular games and many of these challenges require modding the game.
jolmg 5y ago
> why consumers want to downgrade their console(s)? I Googled a bit and it seems people would like to have more vulnerable to hack their devices Or to get back the features you had originally paid for but got removed, like Linux OS installs on PS3s.
Sunspark 5y ago
Not about a console, but sometimes manufacturers or developers change the UI of the system or valued apps. Examples: Sony removed Linux OtherOS from the Playstation 3 firmware because even though it didn't have a GPU driver, they were worried it could be leveraged to do whatever. There is no value in running Linux on a PS3 today, but there was once. Apple notably between iOS 6 and 7 changed their design language from skeuomorphic to flat white "metro" style. If you don't like staring at a glaring white screen, too bad. But more importantly, when it comes to drivers, esp. graphics, they can introduce eyestrain if something isn't as good. Issues with sound, networking, etc. for all sorts of platforms. The Intel Management Engine which is inside your PC (AMD has a counterpart) is a another CPU and another OS that you're not allowed to shut off (or access). Sometimes firmware updates will come out preventing you from rolling back to a previous version that didn't have a bug with the hardware in this or that because of the precious Intel ME backdoor.
- schoen 5y ago
  > There is no value in running Linux on a PS3 today, but there was once. The most famous example from my point of view: https://www.win.tue.nl/hashclash/rogue-ca/ https://www.win.tue.nl/hashclash/rogue-ca/
  - 1MachineElf 5y ago
    I was thinking of that time the US Air Force connected almost 2K Sony PS3 systems running Linux as a kind of super computing cluster: https://phys.org/news/2010-12-air-playstation-3s-supercomputer.html https://phys.org/news/2010-12-air-playstation-3s-supercomput...
sturmeh 5y ago
Typically a vulnerability is found on an older version of the software that can be used to attain kernel level access, and a very simple hack is needed in later versions to force an upgrade to an older version of the software. To prevent the use of older versions of the software, later versions of the software will burn fuses as they surpass versions, preventing them from ever being used again on that device.
jiggunjer 5y ago
This also applies to routers with custom firmware. Sometimes models manufactured after a certain date will already contain the patches from the factory.

gfxgirl 5y ago

I upgrade because the new game I want to play won't play if I don't. Also the on console store will refuse to work.

justapassenger 5y ago

You don’t control initial version you get when you buy it (either new or second handed). Often you also first use stock before you learn about/want to start hacking it.

hnthrowaway0315 5y ago
Thanks, yeah with hardware there is a lot of complexity. I guess if someone owns a Switch with original firmware, it might be sold with a premium?
- ajmurmann 5y ago
  Don't know about Switch, but I recently sold a PS4 Pro on eBay and I got a ton of requests to please at the firmware version because they wanted a particular old version that can be rooted

naikrovek 5y ago

Nearly forced. once the console downloads the update, it will be applied automatically upon reboot. The alternative is to never connect to WiFi, ever, and some do that. Generally, consumers would want to downgrade because older versions have vulnerabilities that are fixed in newer versions. these vulnerabilities allow console owners to do what they want with their hardware, and gaming communities have shown Nintendo time and time again that if it is possible to use game hardware for game piracy, it will be widely used for that purpose. Those of us who want a neat standardized hardware platform to hack on without pirating anything are in the noise floor for companies like Nintendo, so we have no representation among neither pirates nor the console manufacturer.

hnthrowaway0315 5y ago
Ah I see, thanks. Looks like Nintendo is pretty serious about this (by suing a lot of hobbyists and blowing fuses like this).
- Mindwipe 5y ago
  Efuses are not uncommon nowadays. Most TVs have efuses to stop software rollback.
  - MonaroVXR 5y ago
    What? Completely new to me, but is expected.
bredren 5y ago
The Amazon kindle os does not allow downgrades, not sure if it’s using fuses or not. In that case it isn’t about access to pirated content either—people want to be able to modify it for basic features the company has neglected to provide.
mccorrinall 5y ago
Switch does not forcefully upgrade on reboot, but you might be required to have at least firmware version x to run game y.
- hnthrowaway0315 5y ago
  I Googled a bit more and found the history of Nintendo v.s. fans is fascinating...
  - imglorp 5y ago
    Fans? Sounds more like victims of Stockholm Syndrome.
    - 5y ago

mch82 5y ago

> why did they upgrade in the first place? New games and game updates often require Switch system updates. Two examples: Animal Crossing DLC requires a system update. Rocket League seasons usually require a game update.

hnthrowaway0315 5y ago
Thanks, yeah this is pretty much forced upgrade, either upgrade and play, or don't play at all.
- goosedragons 5y ago
  You can still play if you don't upgrade. You only run into an issue with new titles that require a higher firmware. But considering new firmwares can add new features like the ability to boost the CPU clock during loading you also can't reasonably expect them to ensure every game works on every firmware. If you already have a game and it runs today on the current firmware you can at least keep playing it offline by just skipping the system or game update.

heftig 5y ago

Games on cards have a minimum firmware version. The firmware won't let you launch them without updating first.

hnthrowaway0315 5y ago
Thanks, yeah this is pretty much forced play. I guess it is also possible (technically) to modify the code of the game to remove the firmware requirement, if it is just a version check?
- zorgmonkey 5y ago
  They're doing some cryptographic operations to prevent modified games from being loaded (probably a signature, but I'm not 100% sure). One of the uses for a rooted switch (or any other console I suppose) other than piracy is to play modded games. You can find youtube videos of people doing all sorts of crazy challenges in popular games and many of these challenges require modding the game.

jolmg 5y ago

> why consumers want to downgrade their console(s)? I Googled a bit and it seems people would like to have more vulnerable to hack their devices Or to get back the features you had originally paid for but got removed, like Linux OS installs on PS3s.

Sunspark 5y ago

Not about a console, but sometimes manufacturers or developers change the UI of the system or valued apps. Examples: Sony removed Linux OtherOS from the Playstation 3 firmware because even though it didn't have a GPU driver, they were worried it could be leveraged to do whatever. There is no value in running Linux on a PS3 today, but there was once. Apple notably between iOS 6 and 7 changed their design language from skeuomorphic to flat white "metro" style. If you don't like staring at a glaring white screen, too bad. But more importantly, when it comes to drivers, esp. graphics, they can introduce eyestrain if something isn't as good. Issues with sound, networking, etc. for all sorts of platforms. The Intel Management Engine which is inside your PC (AMD has a counterpart) is a another CPU and another OS that you're not allowed to shut off (or access). Sometimes firmware updates will come out preventing you from rolling back to a previous version that didn't have a bug with the hardware in this or that because of the precious Intel ME backdoor.

schoen 5y ago
> There is no value in running Linux on a PS3 today, but there was once. The most famous example from my point of view: https://www.win.tue.nl/hashclash/rogue-ca/ https://www.win.tue.nl/hashclash/rogue-ca/
- 1MachineElf 5y ago
  I was thinking of that time the US Air Force connected almost 2K Sony PS3 systems running Linux as a kind of super computing cluster: https://phys.org/news/2010-12-air-playstation-3s-supercomputer.html https://phys.org/news/2010-12-air-playstation-3s-supercomput...

sturmeh 5y ago

Typically a vulnerability is found on an older version of the software that can be used to attain kernel level access, and a very simple hack is needed in later versions to force an upgrade to an older version of the software. To prevent the use of older versions of the software, later versions of the software will burn fuses as they surpass versions, preventing them from ever being used again on that device.

jiggunjer 5y ago

This also applies to routers with custom firmware. Sometimes models manufactured after a certain date will already contain the patches from the factory.