8 ms·
Honduras Is Not For Sale (2021)
- CityOfThrowaway 5y agoI think this is old. Prospera, the charter city it is opposing, has already broken ground. https://prospera.hn https://prospera.hn
- vmception 5y agoThe cynic in me was correct, it is for sale But either way, kind of crazy that the head of state can dismiss supreme court appointees
- Wolfenstein98k 5y agoWho appoints them?
- m0llusk 5y agoThe controversy started when actual properties started to be bought and used as part of this plan. Prospera operations are not subject to Honduran laws or taxes. Instead of enabling the locals to prosper they have been pushing them off their land. What was supposed to be egalitarian and empowering has turned out in practice to be just another ugly example of colonialism.
- bifrost 5y agoSo eminent domain type things are being used?
- ryukoposting 5y agoImagine you live in Chicago, and the federal government just decided that businesses that are based in Milwaukee don't have to pay their employees federal minimum wage.
- gwbrooks 5y agoProspera's minimum wage is higher than the Honduran national minimum wage.
- bifrost 5y agook, so then don't work for Milwaukee based businesses, seems fairly straightforward.
- hindsightbias 5y agoSo what does Chicago look like after all the jobs move to MKE?
- hardolaf 5y agoEven bigger as everyone from Milwaukee flees for higher wages.
- atlasunshrugged 5y agoBut the properties were bought and everything was done in legal agreement with the government, no? Do you have any sources for the claim that they are "pushing them off their land?" I kept semi up to date with the project and news around it until a few months ago and I don't remember ever seeing any substantiated claims about that, although from articles and things like this it is obvious that not everyone is happy about the situation.
- bifrost 5y agoThe claims seem to be similar to what we're facing with NIMBYism in San Francisco, which often seems to be based in Xenophobia. It would be one thing if they were destroying a several hundred year old city but that doesn't seem like its the case.
- jamal-kumar 5y agoI would recommend spending more time in thousands of year old rainforest islands with some of the most pristine coral in the world. That's not xenophobia, it looks like they're dropping a crappy american city on that and making it clearly less inviting to the local's ability to afford living there than anything else I've seen in a while like this. Americans love to do stuff on islands like this which wrecks the coral, they won't stop flushing toilet paper or other stuff like washing all their cosmetics and stearyl alcohol soaps which wreck everything in every reef near where people settle bringing these things. It'll go from some of the world's most pristine intact scenery to trash in no time. It's not a san francisco backyard bruh
- shkkmo 5y agoThat is ridiculous and deeply offensive. I hope you simply aren't familiar with the facts here. (It so, here is a starting point to learn more: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-honduras-landrights-garifuna-idUSKCN1LD168 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-honduras-landrights-garif...) It is not "NIMBYism" when people complain that land which they own is sold without their consent. When those people are a poor ethnic group with indigenous history on the land that is being taken away, often with force, to be sold to rich people of another ethnicity, we have moved so far away from ”NIMBYism" that we passed all the way through "gentrification" and are starting to approach "ethnic cleansing".
- m0llusk 5y agoThis is really unfortunate because it seems like there might be some good value in the idea of charter cities, but this particular example used the idea to steal land for doing crooked stuff. Many of those involved appeared to want to do good, but the idealized commercial center they conceived of seems to need more structure, transparency, and rules in order to function as intended. With so much money on the line one might think that there would be a hard nosed focus on making things really work, but the oversight of the project seemed to work in a manner similar to a monastic order. Oh, well, but hopefully people keep working with these ideas, maybe in an alternative form like a specialized zone or neighborhood incorporated with an existing city.
- edgyquant 5y agoI disagree. The nation state evolved when and where it did for good reason. Charter cities and minor polities not loyal to the central government is a good way to leave your nation in ruin. I’m obviously referring to Germany and how it faced a demographic and political collapse following that war.
- chrisco255 5y agoHaving a country/city literally chopped in half between two superpowers with opposing economic systems is quite a bit different. Hong Kong turned out perfectly fine, arguably better on its own apart from mainland China. Singapore is more or less a city-state, and world history has plenty of examples of city-states functioning just fine for centuries, even when belonging to broader federations (such as the Greeks).
- edgyquant 5y agoI was referring to the thirty years war and the Treaty of Westphalia which gave the first real definition of nations not as land owned by some king but as the people who inhabit them. Germany was the center of the struggle between catholic and Protestant powers (since Germany had a north south divide between religions.) The war saw 1/3 of all Germans killed and the rise of the Dutch and Swedes as Protestant great powers who halted and reverted the Habsburg empires growth. Our modern idea of states is very much based around being the antithesis of what allowed the Habsburg monarchy to control pretty much all of Western Europe but France. I feel like an idiot I wasn’t even thinking of Germany during the Cold War, but that’s obviously what people will think when you mention it being divided and losing a third of its territory. No when these 33% went it wasn’t to a different polity: it was to a horrible early grave as the armies of all sides believed their opponents to be working for the literal devil.
- bifrost 5y agoThis seems pretty old since the newest piece of "news" on the site is fairly old. Also the top article is from 9 years ago... I'm also unclear on how narcos are involved in this. In general this seems like "FUD".
- edgyquant 5y agoI was thinking I was out of the loop and this was a reference to when Trump talked about buying Greenland. Maybe I’m even more out of the loop than I thought.
- anonporridge 5y agoMy immediate thought is that Honduras has been rumored in the past few days to be on the verge of announcing bitcoin as legal tender, following El Salvador. That could be the source of the sudden renewed interest in the country.
- nyanpasu64 5y agoI'm not sure why the homepage's top site (https://mundo.sputniknews.com/20210521/las-ciudades-modelos-de-honduras-un-zarpazo-a-la-soberania-1112432192.html https://mundo.sputniknews.com/20210521/las-ciudades-modelos-..., though I don't trust Sputnik News), and news page (https://www.hondurasisnotforsale.org/news)'s https://www.hondurasisnotforsale.org/news)'s second site (https://criterio.hn/maestros-en-roatan-exigen-alto-al-saqueo-del-inprema-mas-salud-y-el-cese-de-las-zede/ https://criterio.hn/maestros-en-roatan-exigen-alto-al-saqueo...), is from 2021, but the news page's top site (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/sep/08/honduras-city-project-paul-romer https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/sep/08/honduras-city-...) is from 2012.
- atlasunshrugged 5y agoWhile I can understand the kneejerk reaction to a bunch of foreign folks coming and building up land, especially as it sounds like there was little local stakeholder involvement, I think this presents a seriously one-sided view of the project. I personally always thought the idea of Prospera was interesting if not particularly economically compelling (I'm much more of a fan of building charter cities more fore locals and really focusing on fulfilling their needs like what the folks at Talent City Nigeria are doing) and would hate for it to be brought down or damaged to a point where it hurts the whole movement and of course, the economic opportunities that FDI can bring to locals. All that said, I think that this is relatively old as it refers to the President as Juan Orlando Hernandez who was replaced in late 2021 during the latest presidential election.
- youeseh 5y agoI think they're also upset with people who live in some city taking their land away through legal trickery. These areas probably don't produce many lawyers.
- bifrost 5y agoCould you describe said "trickery"? Eminent Domain is one thing, but people paying eachother for land is as old as time, as is being butthurt about the price.
- youeseh 5y agoOften the deals aren't limited to cash. There are promises of economic development, education, healthcare etc.. as well. You might agree to give your land away to a verbal deal where promises are made, only to discover later that the detailed text contains contingencies that give your counterparty an out of one or more major promise that you had taken for granted as part of the deal.
- rendall 5y agoThe essay describes the trickery. Replacing Supreme Court justices with those more compliant, for one.
- stuaxo 5y agoThe same model as the ZEDEs, with some of the same people is coming to the UK, branded as "free ports". https://bakerstreetherald.com/2020/09/case-2-private-governments/ https://bakerstreetherald.com/2020/09/case-2-private-governm... Within the ZEDEs it seems like democracy won't really be a thing - this isn't a model we would want to see anywhere, let alone expanded.
- nikanj 5y agoW.r.t development, we don’t really have a democracy anyway. 999 people want more homes, 1 files a complaint due to the project endangering their sea view. In city development, we are only able to pass motions that _nobody_ opposes - which has lead to a supply crisis on an astronomical scale
- bifrost 5y agoThat article seems to say that residents of Roatan won't receive the same treatment as the residents with this spectre of potential civil liberties violations. That wouldn't be good, but what supports that case? Wouldn't it be likely that the ZEDE would welcome local merchants? I dunno about anyone else but I prefer produce/meat/etc from "nearby" rather than by boat or plane. So we gotta be missing something here.
- stuaxo 5y agoSince most of the laws are dismantled and the institutions that that serve them, who do residents go to if there are issues ?
- bifrost 5y agoThey seek redress with their government, not with the the economic zone. If enough people screw over the local residents they'll have created their own economic blockade which ultimately won't help them.
- mateo1 5y agoWhat an eye-opening article. Thanks for posting.
- stuaxo 5y agoA microcosm of how employees will be treated in the Charter City/ZEDE model can be seen with the recent P & O sackings in the UK https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2022/03/po-and-the-tory-road-to-serfdom/ https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2022/03/po-and-the-t... Indeed DP world, who owns P & O, is in the running to run a free ports in the UK. I don't see how it what they have done is legal: sacking their employees then asking them to come back, to an agency they own for way less than the UK minimum wage, to a UK based company, but there is no appetite to enforce the law.
- bifrost 5y agoThats what outsourcing is, thats old news.
- mathieuh 5y agoThere is no law to enforce, the Tories have specifically avoided enacting policies against fire-and-rehire practices. https://labourlist.org/2021/10/tory-mps-defeat-barry-gardiners-fire-and-rehire-bill-by-majority-of-63/ https://labourlist.org/2021/10/tory-mps-defeat-barry-gardine...
- rnk 5y agoThese ZEDES seem bad. But what do you want hacker news to do? It seems like illegal real estate development and stealing of people's land, but that is different than narco traffickers taking over your government. Can you give more info about what is happening to connect the pieces? In the us we sometimes have politically connected companies trying similar 'steal the land' for some commercial purpose, it's terrible, it's not drug smugglers taking over.
- shkkmo 5y agoThe key difference is that this land is not just being stolen, but also being given special legal status that exempts it from national laws. This is being done in a country where the cartels have more power than the corporations, in an area that had a long history of being used by smugglers and drugs traffickers.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- rileyphone 5y agohttps://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/honduras-economic-development-zones-worry-residents-experts-79814835 https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/honduras-econ... https://newrepublic.com/article/120559/ive-seen-sorts-horrific-things-time-none-detrimental-country-this https://newrepublic.com/article/120559/ive-seen-sorts-horrif... What I got from the most unbiased sources I could find is that the Honduran government is undergoing a program called ZEDE that is making charter cities, almost like Shenzhen, that are independent of the rest of the state administratively and financially. This is at the behest of a panel of Reaganites, Chicago boys all over again. Their side insists they aren't expropriating land from residents, but that isn't extremely clear cut in a country like Honduras. I have mixed feelings on this, these projects are surely to disrupt ways of life there and defy the notion of democracy, but they are also probably necessary given the accumulated grift and narcoviolence Honduras faces; the only way out is accelerating to cyberpunk corporate cities. I got to visit Honduras and Roatan on a family trip in 2004 - it's a lovely country that has obviously struggled mightily since then, judging by its near worst murder-per-capita rate and emigration. If only the state structures that made this a necessity weren't so sticky.
- ailun 5y agoOne more for you (long): https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/prospectus-on-prospera https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/prospectus-on-prospera
- el-salvador 5y agoI have mixed feelings too. I am from the country next to Honduras. On one hand our countries would definitely benefit from places with more straightforward regulations. I believe some successful cities in China are special economic zones and that's where they are copying the idea from. Our day to day regulations in Central America make even cross border investment very complicated. They are simply not written in a way that are inviting for foreign investment. Both El Salvador and Honduras have had this Special Economic Zones proposed. They were opposed by the left wing in Honduras, and opposed by the right wing in El Salvador. I'm not sure what will happen to them now that the left win won in Honduras.
- rendall 5y agoIf accurate, this is a huge red flag for investors. Ignore at your peril. That which begins in chicanery will continue that way. Such cities could only survive intact if everything is above board from the start. There is no time where things will suddenly move from sketchy to transparent.